$10NL; 4 HHs

NineLions

NineLions

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A collection of some questionably played hands, from two or three different tables yesterday. Please feel free to comment on any or all hands.


Hand #1: C-betting K high flop in position w/QQ, not wanting flush draw to get a free card.
Check turn?
Call river bet?

Stacks:
- BB with $8.20 - UTG with $1.20 - UTG+1 with $7.50 - MP1 with $10.00 - MP2 with $10.00 - MP3 with $9.30 - CO with $13.55 - BTN with $9.45 - SB with $7.55
index.pl

Blinds: $0.00/$0.00
Site: Full Tilt Poker
- Dealt to MP3:Q♦ Q♠
- Sklansky group 1
Preflop:
- UTG+1 calls [$0.10]
- Hero raises to $0.45
- UTG+1 calls [$0.35]
- Folds: 5
- Potsize: $1.05
Flop:
- 10♦ 7♠ K♠
- UTG+1 checks
- Hero bets [$0.70]
- UTG+1 calls [$0.70]
- Potsize: $2.45
Turn:
- K♦
- UTG+1 checks
- Hero checks
- Potsize: $2.45
River:
- 3♦
- UTG+1 bets [$2.45], Hero ???


Hand #2: Family pot, late-ish position, paired flop, get TP on turn.
Flat call turn pot bet?
Runner-runner flush fills on river; Call?

Stacks: - BB with $5.85 - UTG with $13.85 - UTG+1 with $8.55 - MP1 with $2.30 - MP2 with $5.30 - MP3 with $10.00 - CO with $11.70 - BTN with $9.65 - SB with $6.05
index.pl

Blinds: $0.00/$0.00
Site: Full Tilt Poker
- Dealt to MP3:J♦ A♥
- Sklansky group 4
Preflop:
- UTG+1 calls [$0.10]
- MP1 calls [$0.10]
- Hero calls [$0.10]
- BTN calls [$0.10]
- SB calls [$0.05]
- BB checks
- Folds: 3
- Potsize: $0.6
Flop:
- 4♠ 7♣ 4♥
- SB checks
- BB checks
- UTG+1 checks
- MP1 checks
- Hero checks
- BTN checks
- Potsize: $0.6
Turn:
- J♥
- SB checks
- BB bets [$0.60]
- Hero calls [$0.60]
- Folds: 4
- Potsize: $1.8
River:
- 2♥
- BB bets [$1.80], Hero ???



Hand #3: AK, Ace of flopped flush; felt it against 2 short stacks?

Stacks: - NineLions with $9.95 - BTN with $12.20 - SB with $4.00 - BB with $10.15 - UTG with $3.60 - UTG+1 with $9.95 - MP1 with $2.50 - MP2 with $3.15
index.pl

Blinds: $0.00/$0.00
Site: Full Tilt Poker
- Dealt to NineLions:A♣ K♦
- Sklansky group 2
Preflop:
- UTG calls [$0.10]
- UTG+1 calls [$0.10]
- ninelions raises to $0.55
- SB calls [$0.50]
- UTG calls [$0.45]
- Folds: 5
- Potsize: $1.85
Flop: Q♣ J♣ 5♣



Hand #4: QQ, 2 callers, AJ8 flop, check/call down?

Stacks:
- HolidAA with $4.60 - BTN with $4.45 - SB with $4.00 - BB with $13.10 - UTG with $9.35 - UTG+1 with $1.60 - MP1 with $5.50 - MP2 with $18.35
index.pl

Blinds: $0.00/$0.00
Site: Full Tilt Poker
- Dealt to MP2:Q♣ Q♠
- Sklansky group 1
Preflop:
- UTG+1 calls [$0.10] Hero raises to $0.45 BTN calls [$0.45]
- UTG+1 calls [$0.35]
- Folds: 3
- Potsize: $1.5
Flop: A♣ J♠ 8♦
- UTG+1 checks Hero checks BTN checks
- Potsize: $1.5
Turn: 9♣
- UTG+1 checks Hero checks BTN bets [$1.50]
- Folds: 1, Hero ???
 
ChuckTs

ChuckTs

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Hand 1 I'm probably bet-folding the turn and checking behind on the river most of the time. He could easily be on QJ, AT, a FD or something like AJ/AQ and be making a move at you. Checking behind on the turn induces a tough-to-call bluff on the river and we don't want that. A good general rule I try to follow is to try and bet more frequently earlier in a hand to find out where you're at since later in the hand things can get very murky.

Hand 2 I raise-fold the turn. He could be on a 7, a weaker jack or a flush draw. Make him pay the turn and then maybe check that river depending on your read.

Hand 3 I'm stacking all the time. Your FD is obviously to the nuts, a ten might be good and your overcards count for partial outs too. I'm stacking this flop vs shorties all the time.

Hand 4 if I'm heads up I might call down (wa/wb) but 3-way I don't really see him betting a jack there. I fold vs a straight-forward non-thinking player since he'll be on an ace most of the time.
 
jaketrevvor

jaketrevvor

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Hand 1: Pretty much agree with Chuck - checking the turn risks a big bluff from a missed draw on the river, I'd rather bet and pay to see where I am in the hand, making it easy to get away from facing a reraise.

Hand 2: Although not a lot of players' cup of tea as there are so many ppl in front of you, I raise here, define my hand and try and pick up the dead money - this would have solved all of your problems in this case as since it limped around to him BB could easily be holding a 4 that he woulda chucked pre. A lot of ppl say that AJ is overated but I think against only limpers it's worth a pop on a lot of tables (obviously depending on how the tbls are playing). Oh, and I don't like the flat call on the turn with draws out there - raise, see where you're at and fold to a rr.

Hand 3: Easy - felt it. Obviously great FE along with bucket loads of outs.

Hand 4: Kinda hands he'd cold call with pf? AJ. Bit of a generalisation :p but if you call here you're gonna have to call 2 more big bets a lot of the time, and I don't like getting involved here against such a big stack when all we can beat is a bluff and a poorly played KJ.
 
K

kesc

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85
Hand 1: I think you were ahead on this one. My guess is that he thought you would fold on the river, since you wouldn't bet on the turn. If you felt uncomfortable raising, I would just call.

Hand 2: I would have raised preflop, Ace-Jack unsuited isn't really a good hand to be in a big pot with. A raise preflop would hopefully take out any fours that might be in that pot. And another bet after the flop probably would have won it.

Hand 3: I would agree with the other two above me. The other two people have small enough stacks, it's probably a good idea to push. Although I think your only outs are a 10 or club.

Hand 4: I'd say let it go
 
NineLions

NineLions

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Most of these comments are pretty straight forward, but,

Hand 1 I'm probably bet-folding the turn and checking behind on the river most of the time. He could easily be on QJ, AT, a FD or something like AJ/AQ and be making a move at you. Checking behind on the turn induces a tough-to-call bluff on the river and we don't want that. A good general rule I try to follow is to try and bet more frequently earlier in a hand to find out where you're at since later in the hand things can get very murky.

If you check/fold the turn, how much difference is that from calling the river, since the pot is not any bigger at the river since it doesn't increase on the turn? Or is it a matter of then we control the bet size, rather than letting the opponent decide the bet/bluff size on the river?

I guess part of my concern is betting the turn, getting called, then still facing another, maybe small "call-me" bet on the river.


Edit: Sorry Chuck; I meant bet/fold, not check/fold.
 
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ChuckTs

ChuckTs

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If you check/fold the turn, how much difference is that from calling the river, since the pot is not any bigger at the river since it doesn't increase on the turn? Or is it a matter of then we control the bet size, rather than letting the opponent decide the bet/bluff size on the river?

Not quite sure what you mean, NL.

I meant bet-folding turn. I want to bet while he's still (possibly) drawing so that we make him pay and so we can define each other's hands more. If I get a raise, I can be sure I'm probably behind (or villain is making a very good bluff) but if I get a call it's either a slowplay, a draw or a weaker pair. I can then re-evaluate based on what the river is.


I guess part of my concern is betting the turn, getting called, then still facing another, maybe small "call-me" bet on the river.

If we bet the flop and turn and get check-calls, then get led into on the river, it'll be much more likely that he's either betting a busted draw or is making some weird blocking bet with a ten.
 
NineLions

NineLions

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Hand 2: Although not a lot of players' cup of tea as there are so many ppl in front of you, I raise here, define my hand and try and pick up the dead money - this would have solved all of your problems in this case as since it limped around to him BB could easily be holding a 4 that he woulda chucked pre. A lot of ppl say that AJ is overated but I think against only limpers it's worth a pop on a lot of tables (obviously depending on how the tbls are playing). Oh, and I don't like the flat call on the turn with draws out there - raise, see where you're at and fold to a rr.

I'm beginning to look at AJ as a weaker and weaker hand lately. AQ I'm definitely raising here, but AJ not always. But raise was something I considered here.

And I agree; calling is a bad choice on the turn. Two things held me back; 1) worrying about feeding a set and 2) making a limped pot into a big pot. But raising would give me information, and tbh, I'm bad at seeing the newly appearing draws with turn cards so I didn't even consider the flush draw. I've trained myself to believe that someone won't chase a runner-runner draw, but that does not apply when the flop is checked around :eek:
 
NineLions

NineLions

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Hand #3: AK, Ace of flopped flush; felt it against 2 short stacks?

Stacks: - NineLions with $9.95 - BTN with $12.20 - SB with $4.00 - BB with $10.15 - UTG with $3.60 - UTG+1 with $9.95 - MP1 with $2.50 - MP2 with $3.15
index.pl

Blinds: $0.00/$0.00
Site: Full Tilt Poker
- Dealt to NineLions:A♣ K♦
- Sklansky group 2
Preflop:
- UTG calls [$0.10]
- UTG+1 calls [$0.10]
- ninelions raises to $0.55
- SB calls [$0.50]
- UTG calls [$0.45]
- Folds: 5
- Potsize: $1.85
Flop: Q♣ J♣ 5♣


This one seems to get a concensus. Does it change if the shorties bet then raise before it gets to me? Not much fold equity, and maybe some of my outs are gone.
 
jaketrevvor

jaketrevvor

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Oct 25, 2007
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And I agree; calling is a bad choice on the turn. Two things held me back; 1) worrying about feeding a set and 2) making a limped pot into a big pot. But raising would give me information

Well here's how I look at it: two options 1) call turn 2) raise turn

1) You're faced with around $1.80 bet on river and aren't really sure where you're at, and at this stage there is nothing you can beat apart from a misplayed QJ/KJ, as he's either made his flush, or has the 4. You therefore probs need to fold and have lost $.70

2) You raise on turn to around $1.80. If he has the fd he folds and you win $1.10, he rrs with the 4 and you can throw it away, losing $1.90 - BUT if he has QJ/KJ he'll probs jst call and you can extract more value on the river = +EV overall surely

EDIT: reading back on this I have taken the river card for granted among other things so not as valid perhaps - can't be assed to change it tho

FURTHER EDIT: Soz didn't spot other post nl -

This one seems to get a concensus. Does it change if the shorties bet then raise before it gets to me? Not much fold equity, and maybe some of my outs are gone.

You certainly have pretty much no FE at this stage, but I can see a bet from the SB player with KQ typa thing followed by a raise with KcJ or something funky like this. But at the end of the day I can't see anyone to have flopped a flush here as they cannot have called pf against such a big raise with any two clubs here as the A,Q and J are all gone. So at MAX I can only see two of your clubs outs gone if someone has the K and the other guy has pockets with a club or summat. Question is are we getting good enough odds on a call, effectively of 3.50 from each villain? I'm gonna say yes if we count the tens as it is 3-way but I'm too tired to actually work it out...
 
Last edited:
NineLions

NineLions

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Well here's how I look at it: two options 1) call turn 2) raise turn

1) You're faced with around $1.80 bet on river and aren't really sure where you're at, and at this stage there is nothing you can beat apart from a misplayed QJ/KJ, as he's either made his flush, or has the 4. You therefore probs need to fold and have lost $.70

2) You raise on turn to around $1.80. If he has the fd he folds and you win $1.10, he rrs with the 4 and you can throw it away, losing $1.90 - BUT if he has QJ/KJ he'll probs jst call and you can extract more value on the river = +EV overall surely

EDIT: reading back on this I have taken the river card for granted among other things so not as valid perhaps - can't be assed to change it tho

Turned out he had 7h3h in the BB; paired the 7 on the flop. When it got to the river and the flush hit is when I realized there had been no reason not to be playing any 2 hearts since there was no preflop raise and no flop bet. I didn't expect a flush draw to semibluff the turn into so many players, but he had the 7 paired as well at that point. I ended up paying him off expecting either a 4 or beating a weaker J.


You certainly have pretty much no FE at this stage, but I can see a bet from the SB player with KQ typa thing followed by a raise with KcJ or something funky like this. But at the end of the day I can't see anyone to have flopped a flush here as they cannot have called pf against such a big raise with any two clubs here as the A,Q and J are all gone. So at MAX I can only see two of your clubs outs gone if someone has the K and the other guy has pockets with a club or summat. Question is are we getting good enough odds on a call, effectively of 3.50 from each villain? I'm gonna say yes if we count the tens as it is 3-way but I'm too tired to actually work it out...


Good point about all the big cards being gone, something that didn't figure into my play. My thinking was something like, "Me raise big hand, Me hit nut flush draw against shorties, Me felting" :)


But, you overestimate the playing ability of this level, unfortunately for me. SB bet $1, UTG raised, I pushed, SB folded, UTG called, with Tc7c, no more clubs turned up to bail me out.
 
jaketrevvor

jaketrevvor

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But, you overestimate the playing ability of this level, unfortunately for me. SB bet $1, UTG raised, I pushed, SB folded, UTG called, with Tc7c, no more clubs turned up to bail me out.

lol oops :eek: I forgot that all ppl suck until proven not guilty - but then again, maybe he read you for the A of clubs PF and figured if he flopped a flush he'd get you allin by the way you we playing draws so justified the call with crazzy implied odds... always possible...
 
skoldpadda

skoldpadda

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Hand 1: Bet the turn to find where you are
Hand 2: Raise the turn to find out where you are
Hand 3: Depends on action ahead of you obv willing to get it all in
Hand 4: Toughest decision -- read dependent. OOP I'm inclined to fold.
 
Emperor IX

Emperor IX

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A collection of some questionably played hands, from two or three different tables yesterday. Please feel free to comment on any or all hands.


Hand #1: C-betting K high flop in position w/QQ, not wanting flush draw to get a free card.
Check turn?
Call river bet?

Stacks:
- BB with $8.20 - UTG with $1.20 - UTG+1 with $7.50 - MP1 with $10.00 - MP2 with $10.00 - MP3 with $9.30 - CO with $13.55 - BTN with $9.45 - SB with $7.55
index.pl

Blinds: $0.00/$0.00
Site: Full Tilt Poker
- Dealt to MP3:Q♦ Q♠
- Sklansky group 1
Preflop:
- UTG+1 calls [$0.10]
- Hero raises to $0.45
- UTG+1 calls [$0.35]
- Folds: 5
- Potsize: $1.05
Flop:
- 10♦ 7♠ K♠
- UTG+1 checks
- Hero bets [$0.70]
- UTG+1 calls [$0.70]
- Potsize: $2.45
Turn:
- K♦
- UTG+1 checks
- Hero checks
- Potsize: $2.45
River:
- 3♦
- UTG+1 bets [$2.45], Hero ???

(Roy here): I would bet at the turn, if raised, fold it, if called, check behind on the river and call a smallish bet. As played I'll call this..can't give much credit at this limit.


Hand #2: Family pot, late-ish position, paired flop, get TP on turn.
Flat call turn pot bet?
Runner-runner flush fills on river; Call?

Stacks: - BB with $5.85 - UTG with $13.85 - UTG+1 with $8.55 - MP1 with $2.30 - MP2 with $5.30 - MP3 with $10.00 - CO with $11.70 - BTN with $9.65 - SB with $6.05
index.pl

Blinds: $0.00/$0.00
Site: Full Tilt Poker
- Dealt to MP3:J♦ A♥
- Sklansky group 4
Preflop:
- UTG+1 calls [$0.10]
- MP1 calls [$0.10]
- Hero calls [$0.10]
- BTN calls [$0.10]
- SB calls [$0.05]
- BB checks
- Folds: 3
- Potsize: $0.6
Flop:
- 4♠ 7♣ 4♥
- SB checks
- BB checks
- UTG+1 checks
- MP1 checks
- Hero checks
- BTN checks
- Potsize: $0.6
Turn:
- J♥
- SB checks
- BB bets [$0.60]
- Hero calls [$0.60]
- Folds: 4
- Potsize: $1.8
River:
- 2♥
- BB bets [$1.80], Hero ???

(Roy here again): I'm calling here. While not being able to give a lot of credit, a four seems unlikely to take this line. This smells more like a weaker jack, maybe a smallish pocket pair. If it's an overpair it's been played terribly (for obvious reasons) and bb special flopping three fours wouldn't be betting this aggressively.

Hand #3: AK, Ace of flopped flush; felt it against 2 short stacks?

Stacks: - NineLions with $9.95 - BTN with $12.20 - SB with $4.00 - BB with $10.15 - UTG with $3.60 - UTG+1 with $9.95 - MP1 with $2.50 - MP2 with $3.15
index.pl

Blinds: $0.00/$0.00
Site: Full Tilt Poker
- Dealt to NineLions:A♣ K♦
- Sklansky group 2
Preflop:
- UTG calls [$0.10]
- UTG+1 calls [$0.10]
- ninelions raises to $0.55
- SB calls [$0.50]
- UTG calls [$0.45]
- Folds: 5
- Potsize: $1.85
Flop: Q♣ J♣ 5♣

(Roy): I'd have to see some more action here to give an opinion. Ill check call and call shoves from both small stacks, but not the big stack.

Hand #4: QQ, 2 callers, AJ8 flop, check/call down?

Stacks:
- HolidAA with $4.60 - BTN with $4.45 - SB with $4.00 - BB with $13.10 - UTG with $9.35 - UTG+1 with $1.60 - MP1 with $5.50 - MP2 with $18.35
index.pl

Blinds: $0.00/$0.00
Site: Full Tilt Poker
- Dealt to MP2:Q♣ Q♠
- Sklansky group 1
Preflop:
- UTG+1 calls [$0.10] Hero raises to $0.45 BTN calls [$0.45]
- UTG+1 calls [$0.35]
- Folds: 3
- Potsize: $1.5
Flop: A♣ J♠ 8♦
- UTG+1 checks Hero checks BTN checks
- Potsize: $1.5
Turn: 9♣
- UTG+1 checks Hero checks BTN bets [$1.50]
- Folds: 1, Hero ???

(Roy): Eh, not feeling too creative here. I don't mind folding nor calling down.

I'm Roy by the way ;)
 
NineLions

NineLions

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(Roy): Eh, not feeling too creative here. I don't mind folding nor calling down.

I'm Roy by the way ;)

I was wondering who this "Roy" was who was giving you advice.

:)

Hand #3 the two stacks that called were the SB with $4 and UTG with $3.60 at the start of the hand, so there wasn't a big stack to be concerned about. That's what put me into shove mode as soon as I saw the flop, and before they even had a chance to bet. In retrospect, probably a little too simplistic/aggressive given the action to me.
 
Emperor IX

Emperor IX

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And there's the exact reason I don't like these kinds of HH. I can't tell who folded as easily. My advice still stands (-the part about the bigstack)
 
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