[100nl] QQ, 3-bet pot, maniac, A-high flop

ChuckTs

ChuckTs

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I'm not sure exactly what villain was like at this point with his stats, but 'maniac' would suit him well. At the end of the session he was 65/39/9 over ~65 hands and I think he was a little tighter at the time of the hand.

poker stars, $0.50/$1 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 9 Players
LeggoPoker.com - Hand History Converter

BTN: $96.05
SB: $107.45
BB: $116.80
UTG: $100
UTG+1: $227.65
UTG+2: $90.35
Hero (MP1): $100
MP2: $95.80
CO: $54.10

Pre-Flop: Q
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Q
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dealt to Hero (MP1)
UTG folds, UTG+1 raises to $12, UTG+2 calls $12, Hero raises to $43, 5 folds, UTG+1 calls $31, UTG+2 folds

Flop: ($99.50) 6
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A
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5
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(2 Players)
UTG+1 bets $184.65 and is All-In, Hero ...

Had been 8-tabling so I hadn't seen many of his showdowns, especially not in spots where he made big moves like this. He had made plenty of donk bets of all sizes before though.
 
WVHillbilly

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He's likely calling your preflop bet with A10+, so he's likely WA (good argument to fold). But there is 95.50 in the preflop pot and we have only $57 left (good argument to call). Against a player with his numbers folding might be the wrong move. Does he push this with JJ/1010? If he holds AK/AQ why doesn't he let you put the rest of your stack in by checking??? It's probably wrong, but I think I lean toward calling here. The pot is huge relative to our remaining stack and his bet on the flop screams please fold.

I call and get ready to reload, when he shows A10.

Also might a bigger 3bet have been better here against this type of player?
 
blankoblanco

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lol wtf

umm i've never been in a situation like this, and it's hard for words alone to do justice to just how maniacal he was and in what sort of situations.

what i can see is that you're getting about 2.75:1. it does seem pretty counter intuitive for him to donkpush an A or set here. KK would be retarded, one reason of many being because he should have just pushed that pre. but then again his raise/call in the first place suggest he probably is in fact retarded, so i don't know..

i actually sort of think i want to call because him donkshoving with anything that beats you just doesn't make sense on this board, even though he'll sometimes show up with some dumb A that has no idea what he's doing
 
Jagsti

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Wow, this is soooo sick. I have no reasoning other than you have put almost 1/2 your stack in pf, to fold now is just puke. The ace is horrid but hey he has such donkish stats he could do this with anything. I call and spew at the same time. Just put him in your buddy list and hunt him down religiously.
 
SeanyJ

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I'd probably make a crying call then laugh when he flips over something like pockets 8s. I've found that happens a lot, these idiots think that the ace is so scary they can just go all in and scare you away.

Of course sometimes they will flip over trip aces and you're screwed.
 
vanquish

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against the villain you described, i'm pretty sure this is snapcall/fistpump territory

edit: realized you had QQ and not AQ

still call though :/
 
tenbob

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Sigh.... We are beating a bluff, a straight draw and some random underpairs. This is the most standard fold ever, 90% of the time he has an ace.
 
WVHillbilly

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Sigh.... We are beating a bluff, a straight draw and some random underpairs. This is the most standard fold ever, 90% of the time he has an ace.

Tenbob, as always, the voice of reason.

I can't believe it took so long for someone to say this. I figured the next post after I said call would be basically that only an idiot would call. I'm sure Tenbob's right, but just as I did above I would talk myself into calling (because maniacs can't have an ace!) and I would be giving away my chips. What can I say, I'm a spewtard.
 
Dorkus Malorkus

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some of you are either (a) really overthinking this or (b) suffering from "i have a big hand against an aggrodonk so I must overplay it" syndrome.

yes, villain's play makes little sense. yes, sometimes this is indicative of a bluff, but that's really more applicable to when generally reasonable player does something nonsensical. villain here is a bad player, and when bad players make odd plays it's not necessarily indicative of a bluff, more likely it's just them horribly misplaying whatever it is that they have.

villain's range here is basically ace-anything+, 20% or so random bluff, maybe 43s and 87s. you're trailing his range by miles and don't have odds to call, it seems like a pretty routine fold to me.
 
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bubbasbestbabe

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To me this reeks of made set hoping you have AK or such. As much as it hurts, fold.
 
blankoblanco

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villain's range here is basically ace-anything+, 20% or so random bluff, maybe 43s and 87s. you're trailing his range by miles and don't have odds to call, it seems like a pretty routine fold to me.

fwiw i think it's probably more than 20% random bluff (including JJ-88 or whatever) for the sheer fact that donkshoving ANY A is ridiculous here and people rarely do it. yes of course he will sometimes but i doubt as often as some of you think. yes let me push my A and try really hard to fold out KK/QQ/JJ...

and really your numbers are very close to supporting calling, if not supporting it. we only have to win about 28% of the time for a call to be profitable

i'm not adamant about calling.. i think the situation is very weird and marginal. i just find it strange that you'd basically say "this isn't even close" and then turn around and post ranges that suggest it is close
 
ChuckTs

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Yeah it's definitely not a landslide in either direction.

We need to be good %27 of the time and against a player like this we often are, I think. Try punching some hands in pokerstove, it's actually more of an interesting spot than I'd initially thought.
 
Dorkus Malorkus

Dorkus Malorkus

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yes let me push my A and try really hard to fold out KK/QQ/JJ

You're still giving him too much credit - villain's line of thinking is more along the lines of either "ME HAS A PAIR ARRRIN" or "ME BLUFF RARRRGGGG", judging from his stats.

edit: just noticed stacks make this more marginal than I initially thought, but it still appears to be a fold to me. we could say the fact we have nearly half our stack in would make villain less likely to bluff, but it's unlikely he's ever heard of fold equity, so I'm probably guilty of giving him too much credit there. :)

edit again:

Hand 0: 22.108% 22.11% 00.00% 37865 0.00 { QdQh }
Hand 1: 77.892% 77.89% 00.00% 133405 0.00 { AA, TT-55, A2s+, 87s, 43s, A2o+ }

I suppose if we're say >65% against his bluffing range and he's bluffing >20% (aside from the semibluffs in the above range) of the time it actually is a call. Retrospective analysis with PStove is fun. :eek:
 
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blankoblanco

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i'm giving him too much credit to think that he'd think "ME SLOWPLAY"? every player in the world knows the concept of checking even though you think you have the best hand. even this guy
 
Dorkus Malorkus

Dorkus Malorkus

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i think i edited my post about 5 times after you replied imo. :eek:
 
B

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Ugh what a bad situation. I think I would call here though. After putting in almost half my stack preflop with QQ I would move in on the flop in the dark or call a shove in the dark. Pot is 100 you have 50 so you are almost pot comitted and villian knows this so it's "possible" he has JJ or 10 10. But most likely he has AK or AJ.
 
zachvac

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Well I think this is a call purely on the fact that it's not my money and I'd like to see what the hell he did that with :)
 
WVHillbilly

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Well I think this is a call purely on the fact that it's not my money and I'd like to see what the hell he did that with :)

Good point Zach. It's definitely EV neutral as far as I'm concerned. :)
 
beardyian

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If he has been playing so loose of course you should think he is at it, but he did put in a 12BB raise first and even the most maniacal donks ive seen dont go that crazy.

Iritating as he may be he could still be holding KK or AQ, AK etc as well as Ax so its a tricky one for sure.

Depending on on how much i had seen of his hands i cant say call or not, tempting, very tempting, but has he been over playing Ax or just smaller cards. If he had the former, i would strongly (but reluctantly) fold.
 
ChuckTs

ChuckTs

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Sorry I forgot results - I folded. I know, I want to know what he had too :/
 
ChuckTs

ChuckTs

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umm if it helps the results junkies, I recently called in a similar hand with KK for a <PSB and he showed AQ...:eek:
 
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