$100 NLHE Full Ring: TPSK + NFD on the turn, Double Barrel???

[WVHillbilly]

After reading all the posts I think it might be a good time to be a little passive and check the turn in hopes to hit your flush. This type of play and pattern from the "fish" really smells like poket 3's or 7's. I really feel like this play by the villian really says, "Hey, im trying to set mine you right now." and damn he hit the flop good if he was mining with 3's or 7's, and that $1.00 bet on the flop, I have made that stupid donk bet before hoping to get raised, so I can see why he maybe did that, and then smooth call cause he figures he is way ahead of you, and is gonna try to get it in on a later street.

So, IMO i say check the turn and hope for that diamond, and if the turn is a blank, you have some showdown value with the ace so we could call a half pot sized bet or less, but it might be better to let the hand go if he makes a weird river bet on a blank card. If he checks to you again on the river I would for sure just check with a blank card.

You're playing way too passively if you're checking behind on both the turn and river here. Get some value. Winning money is fun.

 

[ChuckTs]

If I was more of an asshole I'd be posting quite a few facepalm demotivational posters or something here.

 

[NineLions]

If I was more of an asshole I'd be posting quite a few facepalm demotivational posters or something here.

Don't offend potential students. Or maybe those aren't the ones you'd want anyway.

 

[ChuckTs]

nah I'm here to help, just being a smart ass

I actually misread parts of them too, so facepalm to me :/

 

[c9h13no3]

If I was more of an asshole I'd be posting quite a few facepalm demotivational posters or something here.

I'm trying not to be an asshole as well, so I'll just post this:

And as for your first answer/ question? WTF?

[Being Nice]This is an excellent opportunity for you to improve your logical reasoning![/Being Nice]

 

[bgomez89]

After reading all the posts I think it might be a good time to be a little passive and check the turn in hopes to hit your flush. This type of play and pattern from the "fish" really smells like poket 3's or 7's. I really feel like this play by the villian really says, "Hey, im trying to set mine you right now." and damn he hit the flop good if he was mining with 3's or 7's, and that $1.00 bet on the flop, I have made that stupid donk bet before hoping to get raised, so I can see why he maybe did that, and then smooth call cause he figures he is way ahead of you, and is gonna try to get it in on a later street.

So, IMO i say check the turn and hope for that diamond, and if the turn is a blank, you have some showdown value with the ace so we could call a half pot sized bet or less, but it might be better to let the hand go if he makes a weird river bet on a blank card. If he checks to you again on the river I would for sure just check with a blank card.

No.

I've seen many fish min-donk bet with draws, Top/Middle/Bottom pair, air, sets, pretty much anything. The smooth call to me looks more like a draw/pair. He has a lot more that we beat than what's beating us

 

[KardKlub]

So, if you see someone raising PF and then pot/pot/shove against a passive fish with TPTK, will you assume that's how he plays TPTK against everyone?

Who said we got to showdown when we did this?

 

[KardKlub]

I'm trying not to be an asshole as well, so I'll just post this:
[Being Nice]This is an excellent opportunity for you to improve your logical reasoning![/Being Nice]

If your not familiar with a good double barrel bluff when the turn card is greater than the ones on the flop and as the raiser pre you can easily rep this them you need to get back to the books.

Being nice of course.

And the move is for value when you take down the pot as all good bluffing spots are.
And if you miss you can give up and you've not invested that much. But hopefully do it enough times for someone to raise you on the turn when you have the goods.

Loose medium pots towin the big pots and the small ones

 

[LuckyChippy]

I bet personally, he limp calls and min-donk calls the flop. He can have all kinds of pairs and random stuff for the flush but I think that's a small part of his range, we make TP which is kind of disguised and we have the NFD to back it up with some added equity. I'd make it about $20 and see what happens. I'm betting fo value mainly against 89's and pocket pairs.

Now to read the replies.

EDIT: Good point on whether he'll call the river unimproved if you check and I think he will, but it's one or the other, turn or river and on the turn he still has draws we dominate and we're building the pot in case we hit.

EDIT2: Blanking the river and him betting out is so bleh. I think if he checks then we can make a small value bet on the river, nothing large just to get calls from 89 pocket pars etc. If he makes a little bet then I call cause of odds and just cause. I don't think there's any value in raising and I hate folding. If he shoves I cry and fold.

EDIT3:

After reading all the posts I think it might be a good time to be a little passive and check the turn in hopes to hit your flush. This type of play and pattern from the "fish" really smells like poket 3's or 7's. I really feel like this play by the villian really says, "Hey, im trying to set mine you right now." and damn he hit the flop good if he was mining with 3's or 7's, and that $1.00 bet on the flop, I have made that stupid donk bet before hoping to get raised, so I can see why he maybe did that, and then smooth call cause he figures he is way ahead of you, and is gonna try to get it in on a later street.

So, IMO i say check the turn and hope for that diamond, and if the turn is a blank, you have some showdown value with the ace so we could call a half pot sized bet or less, but it might be better to let the hand go if he makes a weird river bet on a blank card. If he checks to you again on the river I would for sure just check with a blank card.

That's pretty bad results orientated thinking, hitting sets is god damn hard and just because that guy one time slow-played you with a set is a pretty bad way of thinking through this hand. Also betting makes our decisions later on a little easier because if he c/r's the turn we can let go pretty easily. If we check miss then get value bet I have no idea where I am and we haven't built a pot for the times we both make the flush.

EDIT4:

If your not familiar with a good double barrel bluff when the turn card is greater than the ones on the flop and as the raiser pre you can easily rep this them you need to get back to the books.

Being nice of course.

And the move is for value when you take down the pot as all good bluffing spots are.
And if you miss you can give up and you've not invested that much. But hopefully do it enough times for someone to raise you on the turn when you have the goods.

Loose medium pots towin the big pots and the small ones

Lol at telling c9 to get back to the books first off. Second I'm pretty sure he knows when and why to double barrel bluff but with your slightly vague description I'm not so sure. Also though I know what you mean don't say bluffing for value it's a misuse of terms, it's either for value(hands worse will call) or a bluff(better hands will fold) and yes both can be +EV and you can do both in some spots, but you can't inherently bluff for value.

If you look at my post I agree with the turn bet for several reasons (not just "ha big card, I double barrel you fold") but the way you're going about it in this thread is pretty lame.


End edits, I'm going for a haircut.

 

[c9h13no3]

If your not familiar with a good double barrel bluff when the turn card is greater than the ones on the flop and as the raiser pre you can easily rep this them you need to get back to the books.

Aight newbsauce, I'll force feed this to you.

You said you'd bet the turn on a king or queen because you'd get a lot of hands lower than a pair of kings or queens to fold. Hence, its a double barrel BLUFF.

In this case, we have a pair of aces on the turn, and so you said that you should also bet the turn in this case. However, you've already said its a good card *TO BLUFF* because we get lots of *FOLDS*. However, we have a pair of aces! We do not want our opponent to *FOLD* we want him to *CALL*.

So essentially what you just did was give a reason to *NOT BET* as a reason to *BET*. You're so insanely wrong & illogical its face-palm ridiculous. You've essentially told me that I would love going to the beach because I hate sand. Or that I'd love going to france because I hate French people. ITS TOTALLY ILLOGICAL.

All you know is stupid little rules about poker like "be aggressive" and "fire a 2nd barrel when the turn card is high". However you have no clue WHY these rules are in effect, and thus in situations like these your logic is completely and totally ****ed.

 

[Jagsti]

I like this thread!

 

[NineLions]

I like this thread!

:top:

 

[vanquish]

i've been following this thread but haven't commented yet, but i definitely think betting here is the best option. i'd lean on the smaller side just because i think villain's range is elastic and the closer to full pot that you bet, the higher the chances of you getting c/r'ed, which would be a nightmare


but anyways c9 pretty much pwned this thread

 

[ThunderPT]

Who said we got to showdown when we did this?

I said:

So, if you see someone raising PF and then pot/pot/shove against a passive fish with TPTK, will you assume that's how he plays TPTK against everyone?

 

[KardKlub]

Aight newbsauce, I'll force feed this to you.

You said you'd bet the turn on a king or queen because you'd get a lot of hands lower than a pair of kings or queens to fold. Hence, its a double barrel BLUFF.

In this case, we have a pair of aces on the turn, and so you said that you should also bet the turn in this case. However, you've already said its a good card *TO BLUFF* because we get lots of *FOLDS*. However, we have a pair of aces! We do not want our opponent to *FOLD* we want him to *CALL*.

So essentially what you just did was give a reason to *NOT BET* as a reason to *BET*. You're so insanely wrong & illogical its face-palm ridiculous. You've essentially told me that I would love going to the beach because I hate sand. Or that I'd love going to France because I hate French people. ITS TOTALLY ILLOGICAL.

All you know is stupid little rules about poker like "be aggressive" and "fire a 2nd barrel when the turn card is high". However you have no clue WHY these rules are in effect, and thus in situations like these your logic is completely and totally ****ed.

I see now what your getting at but you missed the point completely, not a suprise.

I don't want villian to call my turn bet. The fact i have just made tp with a 5 kicker doesn't make me want to spew my chips against a player i have know idea about.

But if im called i do have outs and a made hand.

the small bet of just over half the pot give that away surely. (im not building a pot to be commited)

This makes a hand like this easy to play on the river.

 

[WVHillbilly]

You don't want the villain to call the turn? So why turn a hand with so much equity into a bluff? I'm sorry but I just don't get it.

I think we either need to be betting for value because we think he'll call with worse or we need to check behind to get value from worse on the river/see a slightly cheaper SD.

Bluffing here makes no sense to me.

 

[ChuckTs]

 

[Jagsti]

I see now what your getting at but you missed the point completely, not a suprise.

I don't want villian to call my turn bet. The fact i have just made tp with a 5 kicker doesn't make me want to spew my chips against a player i have know idea about.

But if im called i do have outs and a made hand.

the small bet of just over half the pot give that away surely. (im not building a pot to be commited)

This makes a hand like this easy to play on the river.

I think you're getting somewhat confused with things tbh. Listen discussion in threads like this is how we improve as players, or at least we try to. And none of us would like to impose ideas or thoughts on you, or even scare you away form threads like this. But sometimes logic has to prevail.

This pretty much sums up how you should be thinking with this hand

I think we either need to be betting for value because we think he'll call with worse or we need to check behind to get value from worse on the river/see a slightly cheaper SD.

Bluffing here makes no sense to me.

 

[Zybomb]

IMO The turn is a very easy bet.

- Villain limp called pre and min bet donk/called the flop. Based on this alone we can say with extremely high percentage that:

1. He's bad (and hence probably doesn't hand read)
2. He calls too much

We can get value out of his worse pairs, and further value out of his worse draws.

I understand we've picked up a ton of showdown equity in addition to a nut draw and we're in a spot where we don't wanna be c/r'ed here (merits for checking behind) but I think in this spot, against this opponent, we lose tons of value by checking since he'll call with worse in so many scenarios. (54, 65,T9, 99-TT, 8x, all inferior FDs etc)

As for the river 2c hypothetical if he c/cs a $20 bet

1) I'd value bet 1/2 - 2/3 pot river
2) I'd flat the small bet
3) While this would usually be a fold unless we have reason to know villain will spaz in this fashion with busted draws (thus a fold against an unknown) against this villain I'm pretty likely to look him up. His line is very peculiar and made hands don't make too much sense. Earlier streets seem the way bad players would play a drawing hand (min bet the flop for blocking purposes, but obviously call down all the way to the river since I mean...they have a draw) Then they could decide damn we missed, ok all in bluff now. Pretty much against good players I'd fold mostly and against bad players (or very good players) I'd call. This player seems to fall into the bad player category. Call

 

[WVHillbilly]

I have 3 hands on villain so nothing other than he open limped.

Full Tilt - $1 NL - Holdem - 8 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 3

UTG: $106.00
UTG+1: $202.35
MP: $120.60
MP+1: $100.00
Hero (CO): $100.00
BTN: $100.00
SB: $116.60
BB: $113.40

SB posts SB $0.50, BB posts BB $1.00

Pre Flop: ($1.50) Hero has 5♦ A♦

fold, UTG+1 calls $1.00, fold, fold, Hero raises to $4.00, fold, SB calls $3.50, fold, UTG+1 calls $3.00

Flop: ($13.00, 3 players) 7♦ 3♠ 8♦
SB checks, UTG+1 bets $1.00, Hero raises to $9.00, fold, UTG+1 calls $8.00

Turn: ($31.00, 2 players) A♥
UTG+1 checks, Hero ???

Check or bet and if you're betting how much???

Since someone asked I'll post results now.

I did in fact bet the turn ($20, maybe a little larger than needed) and he called. Pot $71 and we have $67 left in our stack.

River was the and he checked again. I shove the nuts and he calls with 87o for the flopped 2pair.

 

[Aldito]

You've essentially told me that I would love going to the beach because I hate sand. Or that I'd love going to France because I hate French people. ITS TOTALLY ILLOGICAL.

Or you could turn it into a double bluff with a beach in France.