$100 NLHE 6-max: QQ preflop fasing serious aggression fold on J high board. Correct play?

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laaberg

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$100 NLHE 6-max: QQ preflop fasing serious aggression fold on J high board. Correct play?

Hi this is my first post here so let me know if I don't post enough info.

Played 100nl zoom on stars.

Villain utg raised to 3 $, both the HJ and SB called the 3$.

I have pocket QQ and raised to 18$.

Villain then 4-bet to 40 $. HJ and SB folds

At this point i feel like he only does this with either AK or KK AA. So i decide to call the bet and see a flop.

Flop comes Js3h2h. I check to villain, villain then bets 41 $ into the 86 $ pot.

What is the correct play here? Doesnt he always have AA or KK at this spot?

http://www.boomplayer.com/en/poker-hands/Boom/20642314_4E16DF7E92
 
John A

John A

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Stack sizes? Most people aren't going to replay a hand in boom. I wouldn't even bother posting it.

If you started ~100bbs deep then you need to be folding or shoving on that flop if you're unsure of your opponent and his range. Because if you're calling for ~40% of your stack, you're doing so because you think he can be wide enough that on a J high flop it's profitable to get it in. Normally, you're folding or shoving for that size 4-bet, so I'm going to assume you're larger than 100bbs, but yeah, you need more info when you post.

So as played, with no stacks, and no info on opponents, folding the flop is just fine.
 
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laaberg

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My stack size is 128 bb. Villain had 106bb. So yeah not too deep. Normally i would just shove th QQ on zoom with this stack, but the fact that he 4-bet to 40bb just made me so unsure. Is it okay to fold QQ on that spot preflop? I did not have any notes or records on villain either.
 
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kozong

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by 4betting 40bb (almost half of his stack) hes like saying "wanna flip now?"

so the only option is 5bet jam or fold pre here.
 
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seventhsense

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Stack sizes? Most people aren't going to replay a hand in boom. I wouldn't even bother posting it.

Lol, this actually made me watch it.

Onto the hand. You flat the 4 bet oop, which is fine considering he is more likely to be 4 betting light because you squeezed. I prefer jamming because he has 40% of his stack in already. He's probably going to call off.

Then you flop about as good as you can and fold. If you are folding that flop, then you shouldnt be calling pre.

Jam pre, or call the flop. Both are far better EV than what you did.
 
6

6bet me

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If you think that his 4betting range is {KK+, AK}, then you need to be check-shoving that flop, since you're well ahead of 16 combos (AK) and only behind 12 combos (KK and AA).

But like others have said, I'd prefer to just 5bet shove preflop.
 
John A

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Lol, this actually made me watch it.

Onto the hand. You flat the 4 bet oop, which is fine considering he is more likely to be 4 betting light because you squeezed. I prefer jamming because he has 40% of his stack in already. He's probably going to call off.

Then you flop about as good as you can and fold. If you are folding that flop, then you shouldnt be calling pre.

Jam pre, or call the flop. Both are far better EV than what you did.

You're the exception, and not the rule though, in every way. :)

Really though? People watch that horrendous thing? <gouge eyes out>

K.
 
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seventhsense

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You're the exception, and not the rule though, in every way. :)

Really though? People watch that horrendous thing? <gouge eyes out>

K.

I just saw a wall of text and nice blue link that appeals to my lazy nature. Work smart, not hard!

Plus, you can't correct me if you haven't seen the hand ;)
 
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ChrisMurray

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Pre-flop: I would really like to know if you have any data on the villain. With the action as it is, an UTG raise and then a small 4-bet after you've squeezed, this looks really strong. I think we can fold this against a passive player because we'll run into a range of exactly KK+ too often against them. We definitely want to shove against a LAG player because he's pot-committed himself with (what's probably) a wider range of hands.
Against an unknown or TAG player this is honestly a tough spot. I don't like calling though, and calling becomes awful if you're going to fold on this flop. If that's what you're doing, you're basically paying 40% of your stack to set-mine/hope that he doesn't c-bet.
I'm probably folding here against unknown players to be honest. He's just taken a very strong line/sizing. At best we're flipping here I think, and a decent chunk of the time we're going to be well behind. Folding can't be that bad of a play here.
 
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laaberg

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Pre-flop: I would really like to know if you have any data on the villain. With the action as it is, an UTG raise and then a small 4-bet after you've squeezed, this looks really strong. I think we can fold this against a passive player because we'll run into a range of exactly KK+ too often against them. We definitely want to shove against a LAG player because he's pot-committed himself with (what's probably) a wider range of hands.
Against an unknown or TAG player this is honestly a tough spot. I don't like calling though, and calling becomes awful if you're going to fold on this flop. If that's what you're doing, you're basically paying 40% of your stack to set-mine/hope that he doesn't c-bet.
I'm probably folding here against unknown players to be honest. He's just taken a very strong line/sizing. At best we're flipping here I think, and a decent chunk of the time we're going to be well behind. Folding can't be that bad of a play here.

Yeah as you all pointed out to me its probably a bad thing to call this 4-bet and then fold on that flop. The thing is that I don't have any record on the villain and it was zoom poker, so people tend to play weird sometimes. I just found it so hard to ever fold QQ preflop, and thought that if I called to see a flop that was low like the one I got, I could figure out what hand he had based on him checking back to me or betting the flop.

In retrospective I probably have to either shove or fold, just make my play preflop I guess. He could very well have AK, but that's the best hand I could hope to meet. I'm pretty sure he had AA or KK, but who knows, it's a hard spot.

Anyways thanks for the replies, at least I learned that I played my hand pretty bad afterall :p :)
 
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ChrisMurray

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Yeah as you all pointed out to me its probably a bad thing to call this 4-bet and then fold on that flop. The thing is that I don't have any record on the villain and it was zoom poker, so people tend to play weird sometimes. I just found it so hard to ever fold QQ preflop, and thought that if I called to see a flop that was low like the one I got, I could figure out what hand he had based on him checking back to me or betting the flop.

In retrospective I probably have to either shove or fold, just make my play preflop I guess. He could very well have AK, but that's the best hand I could hope to meet. I'm pretty sure he had AA or KK, but who knows, it's a hard spot.

Anyways thanks for the replies, at least I learned that I played my hand pretty bad afterall :p :)

It's a tough spot when you're in the moment, so don't feel too bad about it. It's natural psychology. When you're faced with a difficult decision, humans almost always tend to avoid making the decision (or not picking one side definitively) unless they know they're absolutely correct. In this poker situation, that means you call here becuase you want to avoid committing to a decision and therefore opening yourself up to making a mistake.

It's a little bit tangential, but it's interesting stuff, and it's part of why poker is often so difficult for people to learn properly. It forces you to go against so many basic human instincts. On the flip side, that means that anyone who can play poker very well really does have a talent.
 
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Teranu

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May i give my 2 cents here? His limp followed by a 3-bet, signals me a AK to AJs range. His 3-bet was made to make an image about your range. I would have shoved preflop, especially because he didn't had any info on me.

I'm far from an expert, just my opinion.
 
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