$100 NLHE 6-max: Blind vs Blind OOP vs winning reg line check

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c0rnBr34d

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Some interesting spots in this hand. We have 3k hands with V and he's +8BB/100. His fold to flop CB is 50%, overall AF = 3, River AF = 2. Table is also only 4 handed at this point.

PokerStars - $1 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 4 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

BTN: 107.46 BB
Hero (SB): 104.9 BB
BB: 245.92 BB - VP 28/ PF 23/ 3B 10 / AF 3 / FFCB 50 / RAF 2
CO: 115.63 BB

Hero posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has J J

fold, fold, Hero raises to 2.5 BB, BB calls 1.5 BB
Seems standard, should we size up to 3 BB OOP?

Flop: (5 BB, 2 players) Q 8 4
Hero bets 3 BB, BB calls 3 BB
Seems standard again, sized up a tad to charge flush draws with only one over card on board.

Turn: (11 BB, 2 players) Q
Hero checks, BB bets 7.84 BB, Hero calls 7.84 BB
Here's where things may get out of line. The Q pairing seems good for Hero as V is less likely to have a Q. I'm tempted to bet 2/3 pot here but what hands can continue? He may fold some flush draws after the board paired and may also fold a lot of under pairs. I decide to pot control and x/c then eval river. This way we can induce under pairs and flush draws to bet and limit the pot when he has boats and Qx. Is this too MUBSy? Should we bet / fold turn and x/f river if called instead?

River: (26.68 BB, 2 players) 5
Hero checks, BB bets 31.94 BB, Hero??
Pretty good run out, 76 got there but I don't expect him to chase the gutter ball every time. V polarizes the river over bet though making it less than ideal to call off. He has some missed flush draws and 99-TT, 8x as bluffs. With his healthy 3B range he doesn't really have KQ+ but he could have some smaller Qx or 88, 44, 76dd. We unblock diamonds. Should we be making this call for this price or no?
 
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gustav197poker

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JJ is clearly not optimal in this texture since it limits the V range in its bluffs structure quite a bit, because we know that there are many deletions by default. However, against a competent regular I expect more bluffs in his range, because the check line on the turn adds more neutral combos in range V that could block hero bluffs on the river. I think it is a standard fold, but against a competent player I can call here.
Greetings.
 
John A

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Looks like a pretty standard call for the price. If he over bet larger, it might be closer, but I think you have to call this down 4 handed in a blind battle.
 
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c0rnBr34d

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Looks like a pretty standard call for the price. If he over bet larger, it might be closer, but I think you have to call this down 4 handed in a blind battle.
What about the turn check. Is that also standard or should it be a bet / fold instead of x/c?
 
John A

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What about the turn check. Is that also standard or should it be a bet / fold instead of x/c?

I don't mind betting either, it just depends on your paired board strategy and how aggressive you want to be. If you check the turn on paired boards a lot, then you'll to check some when you hit big as well, otherwise you'll be pushed off way too many hands.

Probably most solvers are a check here most of the time. I don't know for sure, as I don't even have a solver, because I kind of know what they are going to say. :) It's never anything surprising.
 
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UkoChebuko

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Call OTR.
You need some other stats. 3bet vs SB...Raise OTF. Call vs SB...Call vs SB 2.5x. 3bet vs Hero SB, Raise vs Hero, call vs Hero SB, call vs Hero OTF. You have 3k hands...Also bet vs missed Cbet OTT, bet vs Hero missed Cbet OTT. Chart for bet size and "value/bluff ratio".
I think 76o is call pre and OTF. Every time....But still, the call OTR is pretty standard. The size is big, but "big" means polarized...Is this a profitable call? Most likely...But if you really use so simple Hud, it is pretty bad imo. It is better to play with balanced ranges against the regs. And this still be a call ofc. But can be check OTF...
AF stats are not usefull for the cash games. Imo...

And how much is your SB open raise? I think about this, but just no info. If you bet against unknown OTF, you just can't fold OTR. And T9o is there...You check-call OTT. And the FD. How he play with a FD? If you don't know (like vs unknown), then I think you must expect all ot them there. Because some random hands.
 
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fundiver199

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I think, you need to raise bigger preflop, because you are out of position. A competent opponent can call with almost any two cards against a 2,5BB raise, because he can outplay you after the flop. The river spot obviously suck, and it all depends on, how often we think, he is bluffing. Since his range is almost any two cards, he can certainly have trips here, but he can of course also have a lot of floats, which he turn into dubble barrels. In the micros this is mostly a trivial fold, but at 100NL maybe you have to close your eyes and call? If you are going to fold JJ, it is important, that you also check trips on the turn, so your range is somewhat protected.
 
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c0rnBr34d

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Call OTR.
You need some other stats. 3bet vs SB...Raise OTF. Call vs SB...Call vs SB 2.5x. 3bet vs Hero SB, Raise vs Hero, call vs Hero SB, call vs Hero OTF. You have 3k hands...Also bet vs missed Cbet OTT, bet vs Hero missed Cbet OTT. Chart for bet size and "value/bluff ratio".
I think 76o is call pre and OTF. Every time....But still, the call OTR is pretty standard. The size is big, but "big" means polarized...Is this a profitable call? Most likely...But if you really use so simple Hud, it is pretty bad imo. It is better to play with balanced ranges against the regs. And this still be a call ofc. But can be check OTF...
AF stats are not usefull for the cash games. Imo...
That's a ton of stats. Can you send a screen shot? I alternate between two HUDs one has 20 stats and the other has 23 I just listed some of the stats I though may be more relevant. None of them have this much detail though. I probably need to step my HUD screens up if I'm going to play 100NL+
 
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c0rnBr34d

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I think, you need to raise bigger preflop, because you are out of position. A competent opponent can call with almost any two cards against a 2,5BB raise, because he can outplay you after the flop. The river spot obviously suck, and it all depends on, how often we think, he is bluffing. Since his range is almost any two cards, he can certainly have trips here, but he can of course also have a lot of floats, which he turn into dubble barrels. In the micros this is mostly a trivial fold, but at 100NL maybe you have to close your eyes and call? If you are going to fold JJ, it is important, that you also check trips on the turn, so your range is somewhat protected.
I tend to agree. What sizing do you prefer for SB and for BB if SB limps?
 
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fundiver199

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I tend to agree. What sizing do you prefer for SB and for BB if SB limps?


In the micros I just use my normal 3BB from any position, because its easy, and a lot of regs dont defend enough against it, when the raise comes from SB. They just look at their hand and not the fact, they have position. In a tough game like this I think, its warrented to size up to maybe 3,5 or even 4BB to really make him pay for that position. If SB limp, then 3BB should get the job done most of the time.
 
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fundiver199

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As for the river spot I do lean towards making the hero call. I think, the psycology here is, that when you miss your turn bet, he think, you dont have trips, and that he can just take the pot away, especially if he overbet the river. And if he can get like 90% folds, then obviously bluffing is massively profitable, and his cards do not even matter.

So I do think, there is a decent chance, he might be bluffing here. And even if he has value, then calling down and showing JJ will help shut down this kind of action in future hands, so that you can get to showdown more often with your medium strong hands. This is also kind of important, because there is nothing worse than having an overly aggressive opponent on our direct left. And a good reg will notice it, if you call him with JJ here.
 
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UkoChebuko

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You can use pop ups. You must. Also Note Caddy...With this you can see the range also. The bottom range. As text...In pokerstars you can't use "heat maps". Just make a note. "3bet vs Hero SB", this is like 3/10 (3 times from 10 opportunities) and hands at SD. If there any... Pop up...3bet/ call (flat call) vs any position from any postion. And the same pop up "Vs Hero". And the Note Caddy notes are there, in this pop up. Postflop the same...Call vs C-bet, raise. Or fold, raise. Obv, you don't need any stat. To see the picture. Call vs Hero, raise vs Hero, another pop up or "one big" pop up. I can show you, but you can't understand. Because this Hud is mine, not yours. You are making Hud only for you...I have eight pop ups. Depends on the situation...You don't use them like all of the time. It is impossible. Only for the borderline decisions. Like this hand, you will bet OTF, check-call OTT and then you will use your time OTR. To call or fold...

For this situation you must have two pop ups. For the postflop game. Then you open raise and someone calls. HU...One only for this and one for "vs Hero". Or one "big" pop up. Postflop game and some stats "vs Hero" on the right. This will be huge, but whatever. The bigger is the better. Faster...And you can add some notes below the chart. There is a tool in HM. "Note Caddy pop ups". You can add some charts. "Bet size" chart. In the notes. I don't know about this. Maybe there is a ban in Pokerstars. For this charts. You can add some "combo stat". For example I have "Raise OTF and won at SD", "Raise OTT and won at SD". This stats work only with a huge sample. 3k maybe is enough, maybe not, probably not.

But, mate, if you are not a "Hud guy", then just use the simple Hud, but search for a regs. You can see them easily. Vs regs the Hud is not so profitable, they have Hud also, they will play different. Play GTO against them (solvers, balanced ranges). Vs the fishes you will have a small sample. Most likely. The HUd is not a big deal. You can see with the HUd who is reg, who is fish. The other things.... Rare, "maybe"...

Use GTO. Or very complicated HUD. You can't play in Pokerstars NL100 only with simple HUd without GTO. This is a bad decision. Pure gambling...

Sorry for my bad English. And the long post.
I don't use GTO, I am learning this only for knowledge, for better exploit. But I don't play in Pokerstars. And you don't buy a hand history. Right? There are cartels, bots also. Regs with huge sample HH. Just don't do that. Don't play there...Friendly advice...
 
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UkoChebuko

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Look at this situation, mate. He is using "CBet OTF, check-call OTT, check-fold OTR". Most likely. Combo stat, Note caddy note or group of stats. He is overbeting, because you don't fold much. Your fold percentage is low. You must use GTO...Or compicated HUD. And your will know the answer. No need for an analyze. And no value...
 
Aballinamion

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Some interesting spots in this hand. We have 3k hands with V and he's +8BB/100. His fold to flop CB is 50%, overall AF = 3, River AF = 2. Table is also only 4 handed at this point.

PokerStars - $1 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 4 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

BTN: 107.46 BB
Hero (SB): 104.9 BB
BB: 245.92 BB - VP 28/ PF 23/ 3B 10 / AF 3 / FFCB 50 / RAF 2
CO: 115.63 BB

Hero posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has J J

fold, fold, Hero raises to 2.5 BB, BB calls 1.5 BB
Seems standard, should we size up to 3 BB OOP?

Flop: (5 BB, 2 players) Q 8 4
Hero bets 3 BB, BB calls 3 BB
Seems standard again, sized up a tad to charge flush draws with only one over card on board.

Turn: (11 BB, 2 players) Q
Hero checks, BB bets 7.84 BB, Hero calls 7.84 BB
Here's where things may get out of line. The Q pairing seems good for Hero as V is less likely to have a Q. I'm tempted to bet 2/3 pot here but what hands can continue? He may fold some flush draws after the board paired and may also fold a lot of under pairs. I decide to pot control and x/c then eval river. This way we can induce under pairs and flush draws to bet and limit the pot when he has boats and Qx. Is this too MUBSy? Should we bet / fold turn and x/f river if called instead?

River: (26.68 BB, 2 players) 5
Hero checks, BB bets 31.94 BB, Hero??
Pretty good run out, 76 got there but I don't expect him to chase the gutter ball every time. V polarizes the river over bet though making it less than ideal to call off. He has some missed flush draws and 99-TT, 8x as bluffs. With his healthy 3B range he doesn't really have KQ+ but he could have some smaller Qx or 88, 44, 76dd. We unblock diamonds. Should we be making this call for this price or no?

The Preflop


When it comes in fold to the SB, I am always polarizing a little and raising 3x with 100% range, almost a 100% of times. For Zoom tables I am raising 100% from the SB a 3x sizing. ´

The Flop

This is a spot where I am not c-betting very often. BvB is a very nasty spot because we never haeve the nuts, considering we are raising 100% from the SB, so I like to go checking 100% of flops SB versus BB, unless there is a very specific reason for so doing.

PS: You provided us with stats with 3 k hands, 8 BB / 100 winrate, which means nothing for this ammount of hands, c-bet flop, etc.

The real important stat here is how often BB defends versus SB, and we don't have this statistic.

The Turn

Once we open ourselves for pot growing possibilities, we cannot simply go checking OTT, because the turn changes nothing for Hero: If Hero was c-betting its Qx and stuff it should continue go betting, if Hero was c-betting flop with draws, the draws are still there and we could continue firing, but checking OTT is way worst than checking OTF.
OF course that when Villain bets we need to call, the turn configuration is still very dry, Villain can still has plenty of busted draws and missed hands, plus Villain will try to exploit BvB, i.e, the famous bet versus missed c-bet, for information.
However, the pot should be smaller so we can make a secure Hero Call OTR.
By calling OTT we don't know anymore if we are going to continue paying pricy rivers.

The River

For this price I am not calling OTR. Of couse the BB can have a couple of bluffs, because it polarized the bet on the river, but I would sit and await a best spot.
This situation happened because we decided to make thel pot grow OTF and OTT we could not simply fold.

Regards;

Carlos 'Aballinamion' Barbosa
 
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c0rnBr34d

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Call OTR.
You need some other stats. 3bet vs SB...Raise OTF. Call vs SB...Call vs SB 2.5x. 3bet vs Hero SB, Raise vs Hero, call vs Hero SB, call vs Hero OTF. You have 3k hands...Also bet vs missed Cbet OTT, bet vs Hero missed Cbet OTT. Chart for bet size and "value/bluff ratio".
I think 76o is call pre and OTF. Every time....But still, the call OTR is pretty standard. The size is big, but "big" means polarized...Is this a profitable call? Most likely...But if you really use so simple Hud, it is pretty bad imo. It is better to play with balanced ranges against the regs. And this still be a call ofc. But can be check OTF...
AF stats are not usefull for the cash games. Imo...

And how much is your SB open raise? I think about this, but just no info. If you bet against unknown OTF, you just can't fold OTR. And T9o is there...You check-call OTT. And the FD. How he play with a FD? If you don't know (like vs unknown), then I think you must expect all ot them there. Because some random hands.
Thanks again for this post. It led me down a new path in study. My HUD does in fact have some of these stats already in Popups, I just wasn't using them. I'll try to rely on them more in specific spots. The one stat that IS missing that I want to add is "Bet vs missed CBet OTT". I also wouldn't mind having that chart on bet size with value vs bluffs. Will see if I can add those two this weekend.

After reading about the vs Hero stats I will NOT be including them as I feel they will harm my decision making since there is no way for me to know for example things like position in past hands which could account for drastically different stats and lead me to make false conclusions. Even with 3k hands, how many of those were SB vs BB in one particular combination of Hero vs V? And how many of those times did Hero open for 2.5x? The samples just become so tiny so quickly they mean nothing unless we could somehow know the distribution of positional advantages and situations over the sample vs Hero.

Found this to be a very compelling case:
https://www.pokertracker.com/blog/2...on-does-this-player-alter-his-play-against-me
 
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