$10 NLHE Full Ring: Top set facing a donk bet on the river

[fundiver199]

$10 NLHE Full Ring: Top set facing a donk bet on the river

Villian Stats (VPIP/PFR/AF): 65/8/1

***** 888poker Hand History*****
$0.05/$0.10 Blinds No Limit Holdem
9 Max (real money)
Total number of players : 8

UTG: ( $13.04 )
UTG+1: Villain1 ( $9.20 )
MP: fundiver199 ( $25.28 )
HJ: ( $13.61 )
CO ( $12.69 )
BTN: ( $15.86 )
SB: Villain ( $14.01 )
BB: ( $8.77 )

Villain posts small blind [$0.05]
BB posts big blind [$0.10]
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to fundiver199 [ Ac, As ]
UTG folds
Villain1 calls [$0.10]
fundiver199 raises [$0.45]
HJ folds
CO folds
BTN folds
Villain calls [$0.40]
BB folds
Villain 1 calls [$0.35]

** Dealing flop ** [ Qs, 6h, Ah ]
Pot 1.45$
Villain checks
Villain1 checks
fundiver199 bets [$0.72]
Villain calls [$0.72]
Villain1 folds

** Dealing turn ** [ 8c ]
Pot 2.89$
Villain checks
fundiver199 bets [$1.84]
Villain calls [$1.84]

** Dealing river ** [ Jd ]
Pot 6.57$
Villain bets [$4.33]
Hero?


On the river two gutshots came in, so we no longer have the nuts, and we are effective 140 BB deep. Do you fold, call or raise all in? Do you play the earlier streets any different?

 

[Alucard]

betting a bit smaller flop, 2/3+ turn jamming river

 

[PaxMundi]

I would bet larger on the flop and then large on the turn, and my instinct is to jam the river here.

 

[PaxMundi]

betting a bit smaller flop, 2/3+ turn jamming river

Oh i was thinking larger on the flop they either call $1 or fold .50 here i think.

 

[Alucard]

Oh i was thinking larger on the flop they either call $1 or fold .50 here i think.

I think their flop calling range is pretty weak hence the small bet. Also it's 3way. but with the flush draw I might be wrong

 

[Tenek26]

On the river two gutshots came in, so we no longer have the nuts, and we are effective 140 BB deep. Do you fold, call or raise all in? Do you play the earlier streets any different?

In my opinion, your preflop raise is too small, you allow other players to call your raise, based on pot the odds, thereby creating a multi-pot. In addition, the statistics of your opponent talks about he does not look at the size of the bet, it is a reason to forget about the standard size open raise and make a more bigger bet, example 7 bb.
In this hand, I would probably make a big raise on the river, very much doubt that he has a street, it is standart "telephone" who does not know the fold button.

 

[fundiver199]

Thanks to those, who commented so far.

Preflop: For me its standard to open to 4,5BB against a single limper. Some people go to 4BB, and you could go larger as well. The stats are on the main Villain, who had not yet entered the pot, not on the limper.

Flop: To me half pot is a small size against two fishy opponents, and I went small trying to induce some ligther calls from second pair, gutshots, pocket pairs, what not. I am sizing exploitatively against two bad players here. With bottom or middle set, I would have gone much larger, since bad players typically cant fold an ace, when they flop that top pair. But unfortunately when I have two of the aces, they are much less likely to have one.

Turn: Everyone seem to agree with around 2/3 pot here.

River: When people donk bet, they are typically either bluffing, or their hand improved in some way. The only reasonable draws, that got there, were KhTh and Th9h exactly. Some two pair got there as well, like AJ or QhJh. Will hold back results in case more people like to comment. Noting so far, that nobody seem to be in favour of folding, and I can reveal as much, that I did also not fold.

 

[Gildog89]

You definitely can't fold. Unless your read says villain is really bad, I think I would just call the river. You really should have heard from smaller sets or AQ before the river on that board. While there are only 2 hands that can reasonably beat you here, can V really call an all in with AJ or QJ? I think their river lead is tilted towards the combo draws that hit the gut shot. I may be losing a ton of value, but that how I would play it.

 

[fundiver199]

I did in fact just call thinking, that when a passive player suddenly wake up and lead the river in a big pot, it really smell like a draw, that just got there. And from a calling station I am not even sure, I can exclude all the naked gutshots, that made some really bad calls out of position and got there on the river.

He did not have a straight though, he had QQ, and please dont ask me, why he played it like this, because I have no idea. The river actually kind of saved him, and its one of those, that if he had played his hand better, he would have lost more

 

[Pablo22]

It would be tough for me to fold that river. So I guess I begrudgingly call.

 

[puzzlefish]

No idea why QQ would be played that way... unless he was somehow reading you as having 2 pair maybe and letting you lead. Cooler for him. I would have called in your position given the completion of the straight draws, too.

 

[fundiver199]

I guess, he thought, he was trapping me, but leading the river was kind of weird.

 

[GreenDaddy1]

I'd have begrudgingly called this one too, expecting to lose to a straight quite often and apparently being pleasantly surprised.

Villain's play raised a few questions for me:
1. Any thoughts on whether Villain could have squeezed with QQ there pre flop? Is this a less attractive play against UTG+1 & MP, compared to say squeezing CO & BTN?
2. Having called pre flop, could villain reasonably have lead out on the flop with the set? I was under the impression that donking into multi way pots when you have a strong hand can be a good tactic?
3. As played, could/should villain have check raised the flop (or the turn)? He was always going to struggle to get you off the set of A's, but AA is just one hand in your range and villain can't play with the fear you have it when he has a set of Q.

 

[GreenDaddy1]

Sorry my bad misread the action pre flop there, would not really be a squeeze play, just a 3 bet after hero raised the limper.

 

[fundiver199]

I think, the Villain can certainly 3-bet QQ preflop, but just calling can be ok as well to keep the limper in the pot. Limpers are typically bad players, so we kind of like to see flops with them even out of position. On balance though I would probably 3-bet QQ most of the time, especially out of position. Its a fine enough result to just take it down preflop. Postflop I am certainly putting in a check-raise with a flopped set either on the flop or the turn. I think, he is missing a lot of value in the long run by not going after stacks here.

 

[mrgupta]

Thanks to those, who commented so far.

Preflop: For me its standard to open to 4,5BB against a single limper. Some people go to 4BB, and you could go larger as well. The stats are on the main Villain, who had not yet entered the pot, not on the limper.

Flop: To me half pot is a small size against two fishy opponents, and I went small trying to induce some ligther calls from second pair, gutshots, pocket pairs, what not. I am sizing exploitatively against two bad players here. With bottom or middle set, I would have gone much larger, since bad players typically cant fold an ace, when they flop that top pair. But unfortunately when I have two of the aces, they are much less likely to have one.

Turn: Everyone seem to agree with around 2/3 pot here.

River: When people donk bet, they are typically either bluffing, or their hand improved in some way. The only reasonable draws, that got there, were KhTh and Th9h exactly. Some two pair got there as well, like AJ or QhJh. Will hold back results in case more people like to comment. Noting so far, that nobody seem to be in favour of folding, and I can reveal as much, that I did also not fold.

As you've mentioned that you prefer the exploitative route, don't stick to standard preflop sizes. These are fish you're dealing with, which means that if you can get them to call more preflop, I'd definitely go for it. This is how you set up yourself for a river shove vs a full stack, sizing up on all streets

Flop I'd go slightly bigger than that, just because your opponents are bad like you've mentioned. Even though having the top set significantly blocks their calling range and reduces the number of combinations, they're gonna call with, 2 broadways with a flush draw is always a drawy texture. It's not like kings on K72, where on occasion even a check or a mini bet like 30% could work, to let them catch up.

Also, keep in mind, you extract more value by value betting bigger vs flush draws and the gutshots (some people will call the gutter for 1 street only, so why not simply make that street bigger).


Turn is fine.

The river is still a no brainer call, this is literally the top of your range.
When bluff catching ask yourself can he do this with worse? Here the answer is definitely yes, 2 pair like AJ, even QJ, smaller sets played weirdly etc.

Is it a spot that's bluffable? That's debatable, I would say no, you showed a lot of strength betting into 2, but he doesn't know or understand that. The favourable circumstance is the fact that the flush missed and some can donk a missed FD, but this is rare.

Is your villain the type of player who even bluffs? Cannot answer that for you, but fish find themselves at the river frequently with really weak ranges and on occasion go for the desperation bluffs, but these spots are pretty rare.

If your villain is a calling station, you can even go for a shove, he will not fold to the river raise. Lastly, I don't think you should be discounting all KT combos given who your villain is.

 

[fundiver199]

The original limper was a largely unknown player, hence the standard sizing preflop. If the limper had been the 65 / 8 whale, who ended up calling from SB, I can be on board with a larger sizing.

 

[eujam04]

poker

i love playing hi low omaha, when i get 1 2 3 4 it always flops high cards LOL