This is a discussion on $10 NLHE Full Ring: Fullhouse against check raise aggression within the online poker forums, in the Cash Game Hand Analysis section; New player sits down at table at MP, does not wait for big blind. He checks. CO also limps. I am sitting in BTN with
$10 NLHE Full Ring: Fullhouse against check raise aggression
Join Date: Feb 2009
Online Poker at: Bet Online
Game: NL holdem
$10 NLHE Full Ring: Fullhouse against check raise aggression
New player sits down at table at MP, does not wait for big blind. He checks. CO also limps. I am sitting in BTN with Qc8c. I have just been folding folding folding due to being card dead. I raise to 45c.
New guy calls. CO folds.
Flop is 855 with 2 spades.
He checks, I bet about 2/3 pot. Looking to just take the pot there with a vulnerable made hand. He calls. Turn's another 5.
At this point, I am feeling good because I am not afraid of any flush or str draws (except the str flush). I am only concerned about an overcard pairing possibly on the river. I don't think he has an overpair due to action so far. Even if he limped with AA/KK, he likely would have threebet me preflop. With TT-QQ, he likely would have raised pre.
I bet a bit over 1/3 pot. He comes over the top with a big raise to $4, which is more than the pot. The size of the raise just didn't feel right.
He certainly could have the last 5 or even 88, but it's unlikely given the size of the raise (though some of these guys do bet big when they have it). I felt like he was probably thinking I had two overcards and my small bet felt weak.
IF he's bluffing (which I was leaning toward because at 10NL at BOL, alot of these guys can't help it), I can't all in, so I just call.
The river is the 6s. Unless he has 4s7s, 66, the last 5, 88 or 99 I am good for at least a split here. (Given how aggro he is being now, anything higher than 99 he likely would have raised. Even 99 is unlikely. He probably would have opened preflop).
He insta-shoves all in, which is less than $5 into a roughly $11.50 pot. I call.
I think preflop is a bit marginal for a hand like Q8s. Do you expect these limpers to make a lot of folds with a BTN min raise? If so then possibly the hero has a tight picture on the table. So on postflop the texture specifically hurts you on the turn. The reason is that a V that has a tight image of the hero, should raise with some decent hand, which in this texture should be 99 or TT that unlock bluff combos for a hero like AQ or AK.
I agree that at best we are splitting against other 8 who are now looking for as much intimidation as possible. As played the call is standard but I am still folding preflop.
In this specific case if your image is not tight, the call in the river makes more sense when you are looking for the trap in that street. I mean your turn bet should be made on the river, when you want to be weak and really want to catch bluffs from your opponent with the top of your range. In this hand your block bet received an attack on the turn, so on the river your bluff catchers have a greater vulnerability.
re: Poker & $10 NLHE Full Ring: Fullhouse against check raise aggression
I think, the bottom of my raising range here would be a hand like QTs, and Q8s I would normally just fold.
I would also bet here, but I might size down a bit. Your hand is not fat value, since you could be behind to a 5, to A8/K8 or a slowplayed overpair, so stack protection is a consideration. More importantly if they missed completely but have two overcards, they are also going to fold to a smaller bet. So you dont need to go this large just to get equity denial.
This turn card actually do a lot of things. It makes it less likely, he can have a 5, which is obviously good. Its also true, that you no longer need to worry about a straight or flush. But on the other hand this also mean, you can not get any value from draws by betting. Unless he is totally stupid, he is not calling with a draw, when any paired hand already has a full house. You also chop with another 8X hand now, and random overcards folded on the flop, unless they specifically had the flushdraw.
So if you bet here, what are you actually getting called by, that you beat? Its probably only 77 and 66 specifically, so its a very thin bet for value. And for that reason I prefer to check back and then look for a second bet to go in on the river. If he bet any reasonable amount, I am snapping him off, and if he check, I will go for thin value, trying to induce a hero call from hands like A high.
You do bet though, and then you face this huge raise, which if you call it will basically commit you to the pot. I like to go back to basics here and look at the SPR and your hand strenght. Its a single raised pot with an SPR of around 8, and your hand is essentially a weak top pair. This is certainly not a type of hand, we are default looking to stack off at an SPR of 8, so unless we can find a very good reason to deviate, we should fold.
It is possible of course, that he could be on some wild bluff, or that he is overplaying another 8X hand not thinking about the fact, that you have all the overpairs in your range. But I think, his most likely hand is quads, where he might be trying to follow the Zeebo Theorem, which state, that nobody is able to fold a full house. So I would just fold here and look to get a better read on him before playing for stacks with a very marginal hand like this.
I am not calling turn to fold river, so as played you have to stick in the rest of your chips hoping to catch a bluff or chop with another 8.
There reason for the Q8 suited raise is that there were three regs at the table that I am pretty sure use HU and take notes. I wanted to mix it up a bit preflop as I hadn't played a hand in almost 3 rotations.
I agree against a competent reg, probably shouldn't have played it like that, I would probably fold to that turn, but against an unknown who posted the blind right away I was leaning about 70%-80% bluff. I definitely did not consider a limped high PP. That narrowed down my estimation of his range a lot.
My read turned out to be correct as he had Q7 which was actually drawing dead against me by the turn, and was trying to bully me off what he probably thought were two overcards.
This tactic happens a ton at 10NL at BOL and often it comes down to feeling out villain, whether he's a maniac or whether he's a good LAG.