$10 NLHE Full Ring: Crazy Pineapple: Preflop 3betting and Stack off Ranges?

[Matt Vaughan]

Global Poker now offers Crazy Pineapple for real money at the 4nl and 10nl stakes. So this hand is played at 10NLP.

For anyone who doesn't know, Crazy Pineapple has the same rules as normal No Limit Hold'em except that you start with 3 cards preflop, do the preflop betting, see the flop, do the flop betting, and then select 1 card to discard facedown. So you have a little more information, and hands tend to be a bit stronger at showdown (but not as exaggerated as in PLO).

Preflop: Eff stacks are all ~$10. UTG opens to 40c, which has been his standard. MP flats. I'm HJ with . So first question is, what does my 3betting range look like here, particularly against UTG and a caller? Yes I have "AKs," but my dangler is a bit awkward. It at least plays to make straights with either the A or the K, so my gut says it warrants a 3bet vs most openers but maybe not against UTG?

I end up just flatting, both blinds call, and we go 5way to the flop.

Flop ($2)
Blinds check, UTG (the PFR) checks, and MP now bets $2.65 with about $6 behind. I cover.

So here the question is basically, is this hand (now effectively top pair top kicker since I'd ditch the K here) strong enough to stack off in a bloated single way pot when our opponent can easily hold weird dangler-type hands like xT8, or x85, or potentially any of the sets?

I don't really love calling since we dislike most turn cards and the SPR is so low that we can jam without even overpotting it.

 

[mtl mile end]

Preflop: Eff stacks are all ~$10. UTG opens to 40c, which has been his standard. MP flats. I'm HJ with . So first question is, what does my 3betting range look like here, particularly against UTG and a caller? Yes I have "AKs," but my dangler is a bit awkward. It at least plays to make straights with either the A or the K, so my gut says it warrants a 3bet vs most openers but maybe not against UTG?

I end up just flatting, both blinds call, and we go 5way to the flop.

Flop ($2)
Blinds check, UTG (the PFR) checks, and MP now bets $2.65 with about $6 behind. I cover.

So here the question is basically, is this hand (now effectively top pair top kicker since I'd ditch the K here) strong enough to stack off in a bloated single way pot when our opponent can easily hold weird dangler-type hands like xT8, or x85, or potentially any of the sets?

I don't really love calling since we dislike most turn cards and the SPR is so low that we can jam without even overpotting it.

PreFlop - The 10 "plays to make a straight with A" only if the flop is KQJ.

This hand relies entirely on your read of opponents. But the bottom line is, top, top, no redraw is a terrible hand in crazy pineapple.

 

[Matt Vaughan]

PreFlop - The 10 "plays to make a straight with A" only if the flop is KQJ.

I'm well aware of this - but it's still a far better dangler than a 9, for example, or even a 5.

This hand relies entirely on your read of opponents. But the bottom line is, top, top, no redraw is a terrible hand in crazy pineapple.

Assume no read. We've played maybe 3 orbits, so we don't exactly have super good reads on our opponents.

It's weird to me that you use the phrase "no redraw" - that's a very PLO style phrase in the context of a made hand. We are only going to get to keep the top top anyway, so if we DID have some sort of draw (like if our hand was AKT where the AK made a FD somehow) we'd be discarding it most likely anyway, so I'm not sure how we could possibly have a redraw here (or how anyone else could either).

I'm a complete noob when it comes to crazy pineapple, but not when it comes to NL or PLO. Pineapple just doesn't play anywhere near me. Do you play it regularly?

 

[mtl mile end]

I occasionally will play one hand of pineapple per orbit with my friends in an otherwise NLHE game. Everyone plays the "odd" game in ABC fashion as we're all inexperienced.

I would consider the jam with top top as a bluff in an ABC situation. Is the PF raiser capable of checking the Flop with an overpair or set? Is the Flop raiser raising with less than two pair? Until you muck the hole card, it is like PLO. If the Flop raiser has T97 or T76, he could be legitimately betting top pair and still call a jam while jettisoning the 10. Redraws are possible, and they play somewhere in between NLHE and PLO in my limited experience.

 

[Matt Vaughan]

I occasionally will play one hand of pineapple per orbit with my friends in an otherwise NLHE game. Everyone plays the "odd" game in ABC fashion as we're all inexperienced.

I would consider the jam with top top as a bluff in an ABC situation. Is the PF raiser capable of checking the Flop with an overpair or set? Is the Flop raiser raising with less than two pair? Until you muck the hole card, it is like PLO. If the Flop raiser has T97 or T76, he could be legitimately betting top pair and still call a jam while jettisoning the 10. Redraws are possible, and they play somewhere in between NLHE and PLO in my limited experience.

Couple of points.

1. I can't say for certain, but I find it unlikely the PF raiser will check the flop with sets, and virtually impossible that he does it with overpairs in such a multiway situation.

2. There is no flop raiser. Do you mean the flop bettor? He bets over the size of the pot but there is no raiser yet.

3. Okay, what you meant by "redraw" is clearer now, though I still think Crazy Pineapple probably needs a more descriptive word for it given it can't coexist with a made hand past the flop as it could in PLO.

Again I'm unsure if you noticed that the flop bettor is just betting and not raising - so I'm unsure why you are asking whether he can have worse than two pair. I feel it is very clear that he can.

If he can be betting T97 and other very similar types of holdings, it actually seems like a very clear get it in to me. Do you disagree? We have T97 in fairly bad shape, and he is probably not bet/folding it, right?

 

[mtl mile end]

Couple of points.

1. I can't say for certain, but I find it unlikely the PF raiser will check the flop with sets, and virtually impossible that he does it with overpairs in such a multiway situation. Agree, but you have played three more orbits with him than I have.

2. There is no flop raiser. Do you mean the flop bettor? He bets over the size of the pot but there is no raiser yet. Yup, misspoke.

3. Okay, what you meant by "redraw" is clearer now, though I still think Crazy Pineapple probably needs a more descriptive word for it given it can't coexist with a made hand past the flop as it could in PLO. All poker games need better general descriptors, but you run into the problems of every hand being so context specific that people must create strings of abbreviated words, or multiple single terms to describe very specific situations. It's easier to play than describe.

Again I'm unsure if you noticed that the flop bettor is just betting and not raising - so I'm unsure why you are asking whether he can have worse than two pair. I feel it is very clear that he can. I did notice that, but the overbet could indicate a strong, but vulnerable (especially in CP) hand - i.e. bottom set, bottom two pair, that he was able to find himself holding in this situation because it is CP.

If he can be betting T97 and other very similar types of holdings, it actually seems like a very clear get it in to me. Do you disagree? Not at all. We have T97 in fairly bad shape, and he is probably not bet/folding it, right?Absolutely

I rarely post in strategy threads because my answer is almost always "you would know better than anyone else in this situation because only you have all the (albeit limited) information available".

 

[TenJack]

I have played some of this game, I think with no backdoor action and facing an overbet we have to fold this. MP can certianly have some bluffs but i don't really want to be bluffcatching here, as by the river our entire stack is going in based on the sizes.

*Obtw, I have a new favorite phrase... No limit Pineapple. That just sounds so awsome.

Also, it is my expierence that these games tend to be a lot softer than NLHE and PLO. I think I 3-bet this even facing UTG because A: he could be totally stupid and B: We actually have a really strong holding. Lets look: We have to ditch one of these cards, so suited Tc would be bad, same for Qc and Jc. (It is like omaha in a way, anything more than 2 suited takes away equity.) We can still make a straight with the T. in this game, AKsTo is the third best non-pair hand you can have, only beat by AKsQo and AKsJo.

 

[Matt Vaughan]

I rarely post in strategy threads because my answer is almost always "you would know better than anyone else in this situation because only you have all the (albeit limited) information available".

Thanks this was a really helpful response cause I wasn't really sure from your previous posts if we were on the same page as far as the info of the hand, and your background.

Yeah I agree with you a lot of times it's hard to comment due to person in-game having best exposure. However, my inexperience with commonalities in pineapple ranges is what made me post my hand. More often I'm commenting on others' hands since at this point in my game I usually get more mileage out of examining my own hands personally off-table than posting them. But when I don't really know player pool tendencies (like in a new poker variant), it's extremely helpful to have input from others who are more experienced. So thanks again!

 

[Matt Vaughan]

I have played some of this game, I think with no backdoor action and facing an overbet we have to fold this. MP can certianly have some bluffs but i don't really want to be bluffcatching here, as by the river our entire stack is going in based on the sizes.

*Obtw, I have a new favorite phrase... No limit Pineapple. That just sounds so awsome.

Also, it is my expierence that these games tend to be a lot softer than NLHE and PLO. I think I 3-bet this even facing UTG because A: he could be totally stupid and B: We actually have a really strong holding. Lets look: We have to ditch one of these cards, so suited Tc would be bad, same for Qc and Jc. (It is like omaha in a way, anything more than 2 suited takes away equity.) We can still make a straight with the T. in this game, AKsTo is the third best non-pair hand you can have, only beat by AKsQo and AKsJo.

Thanks for posting, TJ! I def found the games to be soft. That being said, I'm still making some errors.

Top pair with good or top kicker on dryish to wettish boards definitely seem to be a trouble spot. Often as the preflop raiser I've found myself going for two streets or three small streets and getting shown two pair where in NL I would have absolutely seen a raise on an earlier street to protect.

Likewise with top trips on connected boards, I've found myself having to fold a LOT to aggression where I just don't think anyone would play a weak trips for value in the manner they are. So they just HAVE to have better.

However, where I've had troubles getting owned when I try to value bet thin, I've also found that I have a LOT of success with my bluffs. I'm not sure if a recent break from the game has done me good just in terms of my feel and follow through on pulling the trigger, or if it's that people are super nut-peddly in NL Pineapple, or both, but I just feel very on point when barreling and taking bluff lines.

... could also just be variance though lol.