$10 NLHE 6-max: When to fold a FH

The Dark Side

The Dark Side

Visionary
This guy got so lucky I didnt get his stack. Well, his 60bb.


full tilt poker $0.05/$0.10 No Limit Hold'em - 4 players - View hand 908393
The Official DeucesCracked.com Hand History Converter
Hero (SB): $13.17
BB: $10.95
CO: $6.85
BTN: $6.06
Pre Flop: ($0.15) Hero is SB with 2 :diamond: 2 :heart:
CO calls $0.10, BTN raises to $0.20, Hero calls $0.15, 1 fold, CO calls $0.10
Flop: ($0.70) A :diamond: 7 :club: 2 :spade: (3 players)
Hero bets $0.20, CO folds, BTN raises to $0.40, Hero calls $0.20
Turn: ($1.50) A :club: (2 players)
Hero checks, BTN bets $0.80, Hero raises to $2, BTN calls $1.20
River: ($5.50) 7 :heart: (2 players)
Hero checks, BTN bets $3.46 all in, Hero folds
 
WVHillbilly

WVHillbilly

Legend
Shove the turn. He never folding any Ace and he's never calling the smaller ch/raise without one.
 
atlantafalcons0

atlantafalcons0

Legend
Well because the min raise really doesn't mean much but when he bets again on the turn he generally has the Ace or it's his last attempt at a bluff.

No - I mean on the flop, when villian min raises us - why not raise???

The correct play here is to reraise his raise on the FLOP.
 
WVHillbilly

WVHillbilly

Legend
No - I mean on the flop, when villian min raises us - why not raise???

The correct play here is to reraise his raise on the FLOP.

That's exactly what I'm talking about. His flop raise can mean an Ace or a bluff and if we 3bet the flop we get it in against his Aces but might lose some value to hands he'll bluff with on the turn if we check to him. So by calling the min raise we're giving him a chance to put more money in the pot without an Ace and we're still getting all-in with all his Aces as well.

The only way 3betting the flop works better is with history and a villain who thinks we only 3bet the flop as a bluff so he'll shove over it with his entire range.
 
DawgBones

DawgBones

Legend
That's exactly what I'm talking about. His flop raise can mean an Ace or a bluff and if we 3bet the flop we get it in against his Aces but might lose some value to hands he'll bluff with on the turn if we check to him. So by calling the min raise we're giving him a chance to put more money in the pot without an Ace and we're still getting all-in with all his Aces as well.

The only way 3betting the flop works better is with history and a villain who thinks we only 3bet the flop as a bluff so he'll shove over it with his entire range.

Ahh. Nice:)
 
atlantafalcons0

atlantafalcons0

Legend
That's exactly what I'm talking about. His flop raise can mean an Ace or a bluff and if we 3bet the flop we get it in against his Aces but might lose some value to hands he'll bluff with on the turn if we check to him. So by calling the min raise we're giving him a chance to put more money in the pot without an Ace and we're still getting all-in with all his Aces as well.

The only way 3betting the flop works better is with history and a villain who thinks we only 3bet the flop as a bluff so he'll shove over it with his entire range.

Nah, the ONLY play for me in this spot is to raise his minraise.

I don't see how calling can be profitable in the long run.
 
cjatud2012

cjatud2012

¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I really don't see how you can say the ONLY way to play this is to 3-bet the flop. Is that really ever the case?

Anyway, calling can be profitable because it'll include all more bluffs in his range that will fire the turn. If we 3-bet the flop, we don't gain that extra bet from the bluffs, we only collect $$ from his "value" hands.

On a flop like this I'm not really opposed to flatting because, since it's so dry, there aren't many turn cards that are gonna drastically change the value of our hand. In this case, only A7 and A2 outdrew us.
 
WVHillbilly

WVHillbilly

Legend
Nah, the ONLY play for me in this spot is to raise his minraise.

I don't see how calling can be profitable in the long run.

Really??? Why not? If he has an Ace it's a moot point, we'll get all-in by the river 99% of the time. So the only case that matters is when he doesn't have an Ace. In that case 3betting the flop gets folds where flatting at least gives us the chance of picking up another bet.

So why wouldn't that be at least profitable, if not MORE profitable than 3betting the flop?

Please explain with more than "I has FH I must raise till they fold or we get all-in".
 
The Dark Side

The Dark Side

Visionary
Fold preflop. Set mining oop is not going to be profitable 60bb deep.


OK. I can def. understand why shoving the turn over his bet would've been better.



Belgo. I get what your saying here against the 60bb.
But a min raise from the btn with also the CO sure to come along?
 
BelgoSuisse

BelgoSuisse

Legend
Belgo. I get what your saying here against the 60bb.
But a min raise from the btn with also the CO sure to come along?

Calling is only fine either if BTN is super nitty (i.e. he has a very strong range for min raising here) or if either player is super bad and will pay you off almost every time when you hit your set. Otherwise, getting paid off on your sets is just too hard oop to make a call profitable here.
 
atlantafalcons0

atlantafalcons0

Legend
Really??? Why not? If he has an Ace it's a moot point, we'll get all-in by the river 99% of the time. So the only case that matters is when he doesn't have an Ace. In that case 3betting the flop gets folds where flatting at least gives us the chance of picking up another bet.

So why wouldn't that be at least profitable, if not MORE profitable than 3betting the flop?

Please explain with more than "I has FH I must raise till they fold or we get all-in".

Why are you thinking the dude's bluffing here so often?

I flopped a set - he's got an ace - I reraise.

Why slowplay a vulnerable set of 2's?

We are losing value from hands that will bluff again?

Can any of them catch and beat us? Like pocket eights? 34? 45?

Why give the dude a chance to catch?

Even just a damn 7 beats us on the river.

Please explain with more than - "I just likey to call cause he gonna bluff me again"
 
WVHillbilly

WVHillbilly

Legend
The chance of him catching are so small that raising because you think your FH is vulnerable is just so stupid (I tried to think of something nicer to say here but nothing really captured what I wanted to convey better). You're basically protecting against 2 outs (at most) if he's bluffing. Throwing potential bets away to guard against 2 outers??? I'm back to that word again.

Again if he has an Ace it doesn't matter because we're getting all-in on the turn anyway.

Also Belgo is 100% correct here. This is certainly a fold preflop against all but the nittiest villains.
 
atlantafalcons0

atlantafalcons0

Legend
I'm not thinking my FH is vulnerable. I'm thinking my bottom set on the FLOP is vulnerable.

Please read what I write before you try to respond.

I agree that this should be a fold preflop, but I'm still thinking reraising the flop is the best play here.

Throwing potential bets away???

See - the problem here is:

I'm here to learn and get better by giving my opinion and seeing what other players think.

You're obv here to call people stupid because they don't see things your way. I really don't care if you think I'm stupid because by just calling the raise on the flop - you are not only giving your opponent a chance to bluff again, you are also giving him a chance to out draw you.

LMAO @ 2 outs at most.
 
BelgoSuisse

BelgoSuisse

Legend
I'm not thinking my FH is vulnerable. I'm thinking my bottom set on the FLOP is vulnerable.

Why would you think that when the flop is as dry as it gets? Maybe you didn't look at it right? It's A72 rainbow. You are suffering from acute paranoia if you think a set is vulnerable on that flop.
 
atlantafalcons0

atlantafalcons0

Legend
Why would you think that when the flop is as dry as it gets? Maybe you didn't look at it right? It's A72 rainbow. You are suffering from acute paranoia if you think a set is vulnerable on that flop.

No, I've just seen this before.

When I have the best hand - I like to raise.

I'll leave it at that.
 
O

onemorechance

live free or die
Nah, the ONLY play for me in this spot is to raise his minraise.

I don't see how calling can be profitable in the long run.

Reraising flop = he folds all bluffs and all but his best aces
Calling flop = gives villain chance to bluff/improve

That's as simple as it can be
 
atlantafalcons0

atlantafalcons0

Legend
Reraising flop = he folds all bluffs and all but his best aces
Calling flop = gives villain chance to bluff/improve

That's as simple as it can be

His bluffing range INCLUDES draws.


As played, this hand turned ugly because he didn't take his money on the flop by reraising.

Not to mention there is no question from OP.

This is a bad beat thread.
 
BelgoSuisse

BelgoSuisse

Legend
When I have the best hand - I like to raise.

Having the best hand is not a good enough reason to raise.

You raise when you think that either

  1. villain will call with worse
  2. villain will fold better
  3. you can capitalize on the dead money by getting villain to fold his equity share in the pot

The second and third reasons do not apply here, since he'll never fold a better set and his share of equity in the pot is tiny when he's behind, i.e. our hand is NOT vulnerable on the flop.

So if we raise, it's strictly for value. Then we need to consider how to extract the most value out of villain's range. And considering we're 60bb deep and villain has shown aggression, i do agree with WV that letting him bluff the turn with the air in his range is a superior line.
 
atlantafalcons0

atlantafalcons0

Legend
Having the best hand is not a good enough reason to raise.

You raise when you think that either
  1. villain will call with worse
  2. villain will fold better
  3. you can capitalize on the dead money by getting villain to fold his equity share in the pot
The second and third reasons do not apply here, since he'll never fold a better set and his share of equity in the pot is tiny when he's behind, i.e. our hand is NOT vulnerable on the flop.

So if we raise, it's strictly for value. Then we need to consider how to extract the most value out of villain's range. And considering we're 60bb deep and villain has shown aggression, i do agree with WV that letting him bluff the turn with the air in his range is a superior line.

What difference does it make???

This hand was posted not for analysis, but to show that the dude rivered a better FH. That's all.

There is no question about flop play from OP - we turned it into a discussion of the play on the flop. There is no way I'm not reraising the flop.

In general, I think it's best to play my hands with AGGRESSION.

Calling the reraise is just to passive for MY game.
 
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