£10 NLHE 6-Max SkyPoker - Alternative Line?

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Objekt

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Hello this is my first post, I was playing 10NL (6max, deep) NLHE on SkyPoker and the following hand occurred:

Information on villain is limited, but I have him labelled as loose passive.

Stacks:
Hero: £29 (290bb)
Villain: £44(440bb)

Pre-Flop:
UTG + 1 (Villain) raises 3x to £0.30
I 3b in the SB with 9d9s to £1.25 due to players left to act being call happy and villains range fairly wide.
Villain 4b to £3
I call remaining £1.75

Flop:
6h6d9h (Easy game, right?)
I check, Villain continues for £3.30 (into £6.70)
I call
Pot £13.30, hero stack £22.44, villain stack £38.24

Turn:
Ts
Hero checks
Villain bets £6.70, pot £20
I raised to £15.50, but i'm wondering if I raising is a good play, should just get it all in here or continue calling? Which option would extract more value?
Villain ends up folding

Feels like a missed opportunity, any advice would be appreciated.

Thanks,

Tom
 
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gustav197poker

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You extracted the possible value. You probably suspected that the v range was too wide (that's why I understand the big 3-bet preflop). Your spr is in good shape, to induce semi bluffs on the flop or on the turn, with the lines that opened on the board. (Either with strong lines, such as x / jam, for example.) But most likely, against a heavyweight floats, there was a risk of high fold equity of villain. So you shouldn't regret it.
Greetings
 
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Aballinamion

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Welcome

Hello this is my first post, I was playing 10NL (6max, deep) NLHE on SkyPoker and the following hand occurred:

Information on villain is limited, but I have him labelled as loose passive.

Stacks:
Hero: £29 (290bb)
Villain: £44(440bb)

Pre-Flop:
UTG + 1 (Villain) raises 3x to £0.30
I 3b in the SB with 9d9s to £1.25 due to players left to act being call happy and villains range fairly wide.
Villain 4b to £3
I call remaining £1.75

Flop:
6h6d9h (Easy game, right?)
I check, Villain continues for £3.30 (into £6.70)
I call
Pot £13.30, hero stack £22.44, villain stack £38.24

Turn:
Ts
Hero checks
Villain bets £6.70, pot £20
I raised to £15.50, but i'm wondering if I raising is a good play, should just get it all in here or continue calling? Which option would extract more value?
Villain ends up folding

Feels like a missed opportunity, any advice would be appreciated.

Thanks,

Tom

Hi there Objekt, how you doing today? Welcome to the CardsChat community and thanks a lot for sharing your hand! It is a very nice hand, great for analysis. :)

Preflop action

Well, you 3-bet UTG+1 to 4.1x and UTG+1 4-bets you to 2.4x. :eek:
UTG+1 4-bet range for value would be KK+, AKs, AKo, only, meaning 2.11% of hands.
If we believe UTG+1 has some bluffs in its 4-bet range we might add KK+, AJs+, A5s-A4s, AQo+ meaning 4.22% of hands (theoretically).
Being a Loose Passive player, I would say that it will have in its 4-bet range only the value hands, because these players are far too unbalanced, and tend to be aggressive only when they are in the top of their range.
Against a Loose Passive, I see no problem in calling down this 4-bet. Versus other types of players we must consider a fold or a push (we are going all in versus the REAL Aggro Donkey players, and this guy is not aggro, it is passive).

The Dream Flop:

Your call in the flop is okay because UTG+1 will have no 6x in its range and no 9x as well. It's simply a perfect spot, since UTG+1 will not give you many Pocket 9's to your cold call 4-bet range. (Sweet :love:)
Your call flop is awesome, because UTG+1 can keep bluffing many turns with AA, KK, sometimes QQ (we didn't put this hand in UTG+1's range but it is possible), and even AK and AQ sometimes. If we raise here we are showing to much strenght, thus UTG+1 will have easier folds in many turns/rivers.

Turn

I guess you should continue calling, because the Tx is a scary card for UTG+1, and you can have some TT that decided to cold call 4-bet out of position. When you raise the turn you are simply telling that either you have 99 or TT. Sometimes you will do it with AA, KK and QQ, but not so much as when you have a Full-House.
When you raise turn, it is very easy for a loose player to fold AK and AQ.
I don't believe a loose passive would fold AA and KK in a situation like this.
But I guess if you had called the turn, UTG+1 would send another barrel in the river, with all of its 4-bet range, including AKs and AKo missing, and AA and KK.
AA and KK will triple barrel here always.
If you raise many rivers, giving a good price it will be almost impossible for a loose passive to fold you, giving you more value.
I believe that this passive player had either AK or AA or KK. Passive players don't bet too much, and this guy made a 4-bet preflop, c-bet 1/2 pot flop and c-bet 1/3 pot turn.
The 1/3 pot turn show weakness of the player. However, UTG+1 still have some strong hands in its range. By raising, both deep stacked you are representing the nuts and UTG+1 could only call down with TT or 99 and it will not have these hands in its preflop 4-bet range.

How do I know UTG+1 had a very strong hand?

Because of a simple size bet tell: this is a 4-bet pot. When UTG+1 goes for 1/2 pot it is polarizing a lot its range for AA and KK, maybe sometimes QQ.
If UTG+1 bets 1/3 pot it will be more hard to make the proper reading, but such a big size in the flop (both for 3-bet and 4-bet pots) is a clear sign of unbalanced and weak players.
Remember that you 3-bet for 4.16x preflop! UTG+1 raises 4-bet to 2.4x very sizeable and strong!

Regards;

Carlos 'Aballinamion' Barbosa
 
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fundiver199

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Preflop
I would usually fold 99 to a 4-bet, but being deep certainly change things, since you have better implied odds for a setmine.

Flop
I like check-calling on the flop. You obviously hope, he has a big overpair and will continue to hang himself. Check-calling also gives him the chance to continue bluffing.

Turn
I think, you extracted the most already, and this is simply a function of being out of position. The only thing, I would do different, is to check-jam. Leaving yourself 25% of your stack behind for play on the river is just awkward, and if anything it almost look stronger than jamming.
 
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Objekt

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You extracted the possible value. You probably suspected that the v range was too wide (that's why I understand the big 3-bet preflop). Your spr is in good shape, to induce semi bluffs on the flop or on the turn, with the lines that opened on the board. (Either with strong lines, such as x / jam, for example.) But most likely, against a heavyweight floats, there was a risk of high fold equity of villain. So you shouldn't regret it.
Greetings


Thank you, appreciate your response.
 
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Objekt

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Hi there Objekt, how you doing today? Welcome to the CardsChat community and thanks a lot for sharing your hand! It is a very nice hand, great for analysis. :)

Preflop action

Well, you 3-bet UTG+1 to 4.1x and UTG+1 4-bets you to 2.4x. :eek:
UTG+1 4-bet range for value would be KK+, AKs, AKo, only, meaning 2.11% of hands.
If we believe UTG+1 has some bluffs in its 4-bet range we might add KK+, AJs+, A5s-A4s, AQo+ meaning 4.22% of hands (theoretically).
Being a Loose Passive player, I would say that it will have in its 4-bet range only the value hands, because these players are far too unbalanced, and tend to be aggressive only when they are in the top of their range.
Against a Loose Passive, I see no problem in calling down this 4-bet. Versus other types of players we must consider a fold or a push (we are going all in versus the REAL Aggro Donkey players, and this guy is not aggro, it is passive).

The Dream Flop:

Your call in the flop is okay because UTG+1 will have no 6x in its range and no 9x as well. It's simply a perfect spot, since UTG+1 will not give you many Pocket 9's to your cold call 4-bet range. (Sweet :love:)
Your call flop is awesome, because UTG+1 can keep bluffing many turns with AA, KK, sometimes QQ (we didn't put this hand in UTG+1's range but it is possible), and even AK and AQ sometimes. If we raise here we are showing to much strenght, thus UTG+1 will have easier folds in many turns/rivers.

Turn

I guess you should continue calling, because the Tx is a scary card for UTG+1, and you can have some TT that decided to cold call 4-bet out of position. When you raise the turn you are simply telling that either you have 99 or TT. Sometimes you will do it with AA, KK and QQ, but not so much as when you have a Full-House.
When you raise turn, it is very easy for a loose player to fold AK and AQ.
I don't believe a loose passive would fold AA and KK in a situation like this.
But I guess if you had called the turn, UTG+1 would send another barrel in the river, with all of its 4-bet range, including AKs and AKo missing, and AA and KK.
AA and KK will triple barrel here always.
If you raise many rivers, giving a good price it will be almost impossible for a loose passive to fold you, giving you more value.
I believe that this passive player had either AK or AA or KK. Passive players don't bet too much, and this guy made a 4-bet preflop, c-bet 1/2 pot flop and c-bet 1/3 pot turn.
The 1/3 pot turn show weakness of the player. However, UTG+1 still have some strong hands in its range. By raising, both deep stacked you are representing the nuts and UTG+1 could only call down with TT or 99 and it will not have these hands in its preflop 4-bet range.

How do I know UTG+1 had a very strong hand?

Because of a simple size bet tell: this is a 4-bet pot. When UTG+1 goes for 1/2 pot it is polarizing a lot its range for AA and KK, maybe sometimes QQ.
If UTG+1 bets 1/3 pot it will be more hard to make the proper reading, but such a big size in the flop (both for 3-bet and 4-bet pots) is a clear sign of unbalanced and weak players.
Remember that you 3-bet for 4.16x preflop! UTG+1 raises 4-bet to 2.4x very sizeable and strong!

Regards;

Carlos 'Aballinamion' Barbosa

Hi Carlos, thank you for taking the time to submit such a detailed analysis, followed it very easily and feel like I could take some learnings from it!
 
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Objekt

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Preflop
I would usually fold 99 to a 4-bet, but being deep certainly change things, since you have better implied odds for a setmine.

Flop
I like check-calling on the flop. You obviously hope, he has a big overpair and will continue to hang himself. Check-calling also gives him the chance to continue bluffing.

Turn
I think, you extracted the most already, and this is simply a function of being out of position. The only thing, I would do different, is to check-jam. Leaving yourself 25% of your stack behind for play on the river is just awkward, and if anything it almost look stronger than jamming.

The check/jam on the turn makes sense, if villain has a strong over pair would imagine he'd have a hard time folding, thanks for the response! :)
 
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Either raise the flop or flat the turn. If you raise the turn there, it's over unless he has a 6, which will be a small part of his range and you're better off waiting to see if he makes a good second best hand or bluffs the river. Use your position.
 
bgomez89

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So are you 3betting pre because you think they'll still call wide? 3betting 99 seems weird to be but I guess if people are calling a lot of 3bets I might feel better about it.

What was your thought process on the 4bet call? You're likely crushed or it's a flip, either way it sucks even more because you'll be OOP. It'd be an easy fold for me.

As far as the flop, just raise. The guy 4bet pre so he likely won't fold to a raise and might even come over the top.
 
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fundiver199

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So are you 3betting pre because you think they'll still call wide? 3betting 99 seems weird to be but I guess if people are calling a lot of 3bets I might feel better about it.

A 3-bet with 99 is not for value, so its better to do it against someone, who fold a lot to 3-bets. If they fold hands like KJ, QJ or JTs, we are denying a lot of equity and taking away some tough and unprofitable spots postflop, when the flop come like J73 rainbow, and we feel obliged to pay at least one bet.
 
bgomez89

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A 3-bet with 99 is not for value, so its better to do it against someone, who fold a lot to 3-bets. If they fold hands like KJ, QJ or JTs, we are denying a lot of equity and taking away some tough and unprofitable spots postflop, when the flop come like J73 rainbow, and we feel obliged to pay at least one bet.
How does this make sense? If someone has a high 3bet call % , 3betting something like 99 can absolutely be for value
 
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fundiver199

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How does this make sense? If someone has a high 3bet call % , 3betting something like 99 can absolutely be for value

Even against a wide range 99 will be against two overcards most of the time. Sure they might continue with some hands, which 99 is ahead off, like 66-88 or some suited aces, but they will also continue with TT+ obviously. For a bet to be for value, you need to be ahead of your opponents range not just a few individual hands in it. 99 benefit a lot more from folding out equity than from getting called. For instance if your opponent has JTo, you would much rather, that he fold.
 
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I agree with others on pre flop issues. I would just flat pre flop and set mine this deep. If V is passive he isn't raising much so he probably has at least two overs. He's also described as loose so I expect him to at least call our 3 bet. Playing 99 OOP in a three bet pot can be tough. When the passive guy puts in a 4th bet I'm folding 99. At this point we are getting less than 10 to 1 stack to pot ratio and I think set mining is too thin. As played I like flop x/c. I also x/c turn. After we call turn we will have less than 16 left and a pot of over 33. In a 4 bet pot V is likely to go for 3 streets with value hands like over pairs and may also bluff at it with AQ+. If V is not strong enough to bet river they aren't likely to call a turn raise anyway. If V makes any river bet it will be incredibly hard to fold to any raise if they don't put us all in to start.
 
bgomez89

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Even against a wide range 99 will be against two overcards most of the time. Sure they might continue with some hands, which 99 is ahead off, like 66-88 or some suited aces, but they will also continue with TT+ obviously. For a bet to be for value, you need to be ahead of your opponents range not just a few individual hands in it. 99 benefit a lot more from folding out equity than from getting called. For instance if your opponent has JTo, you would much rather, that he fold.

No... If my opponent has JTo and I have 99, if I'm 3betting pre for value, I'd much rather him call with JTo, worse pairs, and other nonpair over cards than fold. If he doesn't call with those and only QQ+/AK, then we are not actually 3betting for value, it's a bluff.
 
PaxMundi

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I was going to say i don't mind the raise on the turn i think villains have a very hard time getting away from over pairs especially in a 4bet pot.If we call the turn and check the river we allow villain to check back all those over pairs.If we were ip i would of thought calling and letting villain bt the river was the best option but reading JonA's reply maybe calling the turn is the best line even oop.
 
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No... If my opponent has JTo and I have 99, if I'm 3betting pre for value, I'd much rather him call with JTo, worse pairs, and other nonpair over cards than fold.

Given typical 3-bet sizing the opponent will not be getting the right odds to call with a lower pocket pair, so yes you want him to continue with those hands. He will be getting more than the right odds to call with JTo though, and this is why, you would rather, that he fold. If he has a hand with one overcard like A9, you are kind of indifferent, if he call or fold.
 
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