$10 NLHE 6-max: question about bet-sizing (3bet pot)

[Haze of Spade]

i didn't use a hud so i don't have the hand history but it's a pretty simple spot.
played on fast-fold table (snap):

villain is unknown, i assume reg (did't see him make anything stupid)
we are 100bb deep.

CO opens 3x, i 3bet AKo from the blinds to 10bb, he calls

flop is AJ9, 2 clubs (i have no club)
i cbet 1/2 pot, he calls

turn is a low card, no club
pot is 40bb with 80bb behind, now i bet 2/3, so 30bb into 40bb
he says "bad bet size" and folds..

i know i could have bet less on the turn like 1/2 pot because i can still jam river then and get value from weak aces on the turn but when i was in the situation i just didnt wanna see a bad river and rather collect the pot right now than having a tough river decision.

do i miss to much value here, what do you think?

 

[gustav197poker]

I don't think you made a big mistake in this hand. On the turn you can bet a little less, about 60-65% of the pot. Your bet on the turn was also not of a disproportionate size. In my opinion you correctly blocked the board lines, which can hit the range V. These types of aggressive movements are profitable in the long term, because many times if the villain is not disciplined, he will often seek to complete his gutshot, flush draw, etc. And he will neglect his stack, his current range. In definitive, the villain will end up overestimating his odds, and he will be exploited many times, for neglecting your line.
It is preferable to bet more and not less, when you intend to block a future hand, that could improve the range of the villain.
In preflop, maybe I would have bet a little more on 3bet. And in a blind position, your hand has a lot of defense and attack capacity. So I think it was a good hand in my opinion.
Regards.

 

[fundiver199]

He was probably mad, that you priced out his draw.

 

[Vlad Savchenko]

30 bb into 40 bb is 3/4
Definitely betting on the larger side on the turn on a draw-heavy board isn't a mistake.
I'd go 2/3, 2/3, all-in, but your sizings get the job done as well.
I've actually been called a "stupid fish donk retard" for some innocent double-barreling, so don't take it too close to heart

 

[rayrc]

I think the villain wanted a cheap or free card to complete his project.

 

[teh_colonel_saigon]

You could consider the inverse, 2/3 on flop, 1/2 on turn. Depends on how you c-bet and if you think this guy will call.

I don't think there was an error. If you bet small, you could get raised by an aggro player, putting you in a tough spot. Better to bet straight forward. WP

 

[Aballinamion]

Hello there

Hello Haze of Spades! Thanks a lot for sharing your hand with the Cardschat community.

You said:

Villain CO: Opens 3x
BTN: folds,
SB: folds,
Hero BB: 3bets to 10x
Villain CO calls for a heads-up flop:

Flop: AcJc9x

Hero BB C-bet 1/2 Pot. Villain Co Calls.

Now I have a question for you, which I believe could improve both of us: why did you elect to C-Bet 1/2 Pot out of position, versus a Regular in a medium connected Flop?
Is this a bet for value and protection, or it is a bet for bluff? When you bet 1/2 Pot in a 3bet Pot OOP, do you expect more calls and raises (Value) or more calls and folds (Bluff)?
Yes, some may argue that the J connects with the 9 and the Ace connects with the Jack and it is a tough spot, indeed.
However, would Hero be betting 1/2 pot Out Of Position with his entire range? For instance if you catch a gutter would you bet 1/2 pot in a 3bet pot? and the same goes for if you hit a flush draw or if you hit nothing. Let us imagine your Ace didn't hit the board would you still be betting 1/2 Pot?
I believe that versus a Regular/TAG this is a kind of a big bet. And when we use to bet strong in the Flop we are saying to our opponent: "I am going to put you All-in either in the Turn or in the River".
When the Pot Geometry goes so strong like that just in the Flop it would be hard to Fold many Rivers with your Top Pair if the aggression continues in the Turn, and also the force and intensity of the bets. Remember that you have no reliable information about this Villain as you told in the beginning of your post, but you consider him/her a regular because you didn't see it doing anything odd.
Then Villain calls in position, but I believe he thought you had Sets or Better (If possible because you did not told which card hit the Turn). When this guy calls he might have a Jack from time to time that he decided to open from the CO, but a weaker Jack, since you have the removal of AJ and KJ combos. But he could have QJo or QJs that decided to call your 3bet In Position because these Broadways tend to flop so good. But he/she also can have some combos of J9, QT, Q9, Q8, J8, that could be calling this huge C-bet Flop.
Villain CO also has a ton of Club Flush Draws when he calls you since you are not blocking any Club in his range.
And then the Turn comes a low card (under 9, I guess) and you make a Huge Double Barrel for protection, betting 30 BB in a Pot of 40 BB, which I believe is perfectly fine, except for the fact that the Villain CO seems a Regular, and this could be very tricky and dangerous if he decides to put up a shove upon your Double Barrel Turn, it would be a very hard time for you.
One point that I forgot was to analyse your 3bet sizing: You made a very small 3bet sizing Out of Position, I dare to say, something like 3.3x, giving good odds for our friend in the Co to call with combos as JT, J9, J8, QT, Q9, Q8, etc. I like to say that I really don't like giving rope to my adversaries to hang me, which means, I really don't like giving nice odds to my opponents, specially when I am out of position because the lower my 3bet size is, higher will be the calling range and also the 4bet range since the odds are amazing.
So, whether I like it or not, I am 3betting 4x OOP versus Regulars IP, so they don't have amazing odds. Sometimes when you make a Small 3bet seems that you have a Strong Portion of your Range and does not intend the Villain to Fold. Maybe that's what the Villain thought, but this is one thing we would never know.
I believe, with my low experience, that you lost a bit of value here. Why is the question:

A) When you Bet strong and Villain Folds you didn't get the Maximum Value of your hand
B) When you Bet strong and Villain Calls or worst, Raises you (at the micros, mostly) you know there is just a small percentage change that you could be ahead.

So, what is the point of overprotection in the Flop and in the Turn? In the Flop, I could barely agree with the Strong 1/2 Pot bet, but in the Turn, I believe Villain would have with his Straight Draws and Flush Draws, at the best case scenario 25% equity given board configuration until the Turn, as you explained for us.
How Could Villain be Calling a 3/4 Pot Bet compromising his Stack in the River with only 20-25% Equity?
Again, would you bet 1/2 pot in a 3bet Pot in a semi-wet connected Flop if you completely miss it? Let me know what do you guys think, because this is simply my opinion, not the truth of the universe. But Haze of Spades asked the community what do we think about it, and I do enjoy to be candid in professional situations like that.
I read the comments of the general population but I confess I don't like to play exploitative game versus Regulars, specially unknown ones: I tend to go straight for GTO, because the variance costs us a lot and we gain so little versus Regs(1bb/100?) that I don't see why to be fancy. Now versus a Whale or a FISH I would advocate that you should bet even more and charge real hard its draws.

Regards;

Carlos 'Aballinamion' Barbosa

 

[gustav197poker]

You could consider the inverse, 2/3 on flop, 1/2 on turn. Depends on how you c-bet and if you think this guy will call.

I don't think there was an error. If you bet small, you could get raised by an aggro player, putting you in a tough spot. Better to bet straight forward. WP

Your point is very interesting, but we have to be prepared for an aggressive confrontation, if the villain reraise in the turn.

 

[mbrenneman0]

Dont worry about your opponents comment. Opponemts who make comments like that almost never know what theyre talking about. You opponemt doesnt realize that not knowing his exact hand doesnt mean its s bad play.

What you do want to think about is pot geometry. If you bet 30bb into a 40bb pot and get called then the pot on the river will be 100bb and youll only have a 1/2pot sized bet left on the river. Is that more or less ideal than having bet 20bb on the turn and having an 80bb pot with 60bb behind? Thats the question that should be part of your thought process on the turn.

If you have a 3/4pot sized bet left on the river, the bluffs in your range can continue on the river much more effectively

 

[fundiver199]

I've actually been called a "stupid fish donk retard" for some innocent double-barreling, so don't take it too close to heart

I always have a HUD running, and it has happened more than once, that someone playing 60+% of their hands call another player "fish" in the chat. I never say anything in these situations, but I am certainly smiling inside

 

[Vlad Savchenko]

I always have a HUD running, and it has happened more than once, that someone playing 60+% of their hands call another player "fish" in the chat. I never say anything in these situations, but I am certainly smiling inside

Yeah, these situations are quite funny. A couple days ago I saw a player who made a min-3bet, got 4-bet, called the open-raiser a stupid donk and folded xD
I'd say that regs are probably just too busy playing rather than commenting on someone's game, while fish have planty of time to be angry and express their emotions through chat

 

[c0rnBr34d]

I think your sizings are mostly fine here. I would tweak them a bit but in general the V is just mad that they have to fold. Perhaps they call a smaller bet, but if we size down enough we are making their call correct. Then when they show any aggression on the river we will probably be overfolding because there are several different straight draws and flush draws that could come in, or the board could pair creating tons of bluff opportunities along with made draws. But to my original suggestion here are my tweaks. Pre flop I'd size 4x since we are OOP. Flop 1/2 is fine, maybe a smidge more since Vs overcall c-bets in general this is where we can get the most value. Turn I like 2/3 but 3/4 is also fine IMO. NH

 

[Haze of Spade]

Thank you all for the replies!!

so my turn bet was 3/4, not 2/3 true..
i agree i should 3bet 4x as i was on the SB but for BB i like the size because i feel better when bluffing. i 3bet 3.5x so not exactly 1$.

to Aballinamion:
that's what i was thinking! i used to bet even larger on such a flop not too long ago but i learned that i achieve the same goal with a smaller bet in a 3bet pot (gotta say i'm taking a shot at 10NL and i usually play 5NL)
so at 5NL i would't even think about it because i get called anyway..
to answer your questions (if i didn't overlook one lol), i bet my entire range the same size here. my plan was to call a shove on the turn, as i pretty much was committed then and even check-call a shove on a club river because stacks are so small.
so i was realizing that when i was in that spot and suddenly V makes that comment about my sizing.. i dont even know if he was pissed or if he wanted to help me lol but it made me think about it again and i realized that on a bad river, with a smaller sizing i can check-fold to a river jam (i would call a small bet)

the thing is i just started playing snap (used to play zoom in the past) and i only know a few players there. so as it's not possible to use a hud there, i try to be as balanced as possible against regs but i know, most regs at the micros have big leaks so i also adjust to that.
so in this hand i wonder if it's now time to get more gto or if i should just do the same as at 5nl (5nl is no big difference to 10nl on 888poker on the regular tables at least)

 

[stoper92]

I don't think, that 3 betting OOP 4x is better - only strong hands tends to continue when 3x keeps pretty big of opening range. On this semi wet flop I like half pot bet - vil will continue with all the jacks, gut shots, MAYBE middle and low pair for 1 bet. In my opinion the bet on turn was too big - as you said the card was blank. Thinking player will not pay you with another so big bet with weaker hand. All the jacks, all the gutshots, maybe OESD, small pairs, weak flush draws, weak aces - all the hands will fold with that huge sizing. They know, that they are committed in pot on river. Only better hands will continue: JJ (if not 4betting pre), 99, AJ, A9, J9. So I don't see the good reason to attack Vil with 3/4 pot. Of course, sometime you and up when Vil will collect his draws, think about times you get value

 

[TheDude6622]

He was probably mad, that you priced out his draw.

Absolutely. You won a good size pot with AK and avoided the club draw drawing to their flush. Well played!

 

[stoper92]

Absolutely. You won a good size pot with AK and avoided the club draw drawing to their flush. Well played!

But why you don't want him to draw? If you put only drawing clubs (KQ, KT, QT, Q9, T9, 98, 87, 76, 65) you have 72% equity. When you add all the weaker Aces, all the straight draws, which could pay a lower bet you have ~80% equity versus that range. You want him to draw. Of course 1 in a 5 hands he hits, but it is what it is. When we play against fish I believe it's a good sizing (he have a huge amount of draws), but against reg he won't pay you with a weaker hand, you polarize on two pairs and sets.

 

[TheDude6622]

But why you don't want him to draw? If you put only drawing clubs (KQ, KT, QT, Q9, T9, 98, 87, 76, 65) you have 72% equity. When you add all the weaker Aces, all the straight draws, which could pay a lower bet you have ~80% equity versus that range. You want him to draw. Of course 1 in a 5 hands he hits, but it is what it is. When we play against fish I believe it's a good sizing (he have a huge amount of draws), but against reg he won't pay you with a weaker hand, you polarize on two pairs and sets.

If you look at the pot size, you already have a substantial amount. Why risk even more and lose it all when you could just take it down right there?

 

[Aballinamion]

neat

so my turn bet was 3/4, not 2/3 true..
i agree i should 3bet 4x as i was on the SB but for BB i like the size because i feel better when bluffing. i 3bet 3.5x so not exactly 1$.

to Aballinamion:
that's what i was thinking! i used to bet even larger on such a flop not too long ago but i learned that i achieve the same goal with a smaller bet in a 3bet pot (gotta say i'm taking a shot at 10NL and i usually play 5NL)
so at 5NL i would't even think about it because i get called anyway..
to answer your questions (if i didn't overlook one lol), i bet my entire range the same size here. my plan was to call a shove on the turn, as i pretty much was committed then and even check-call a shove on a club river because stacks are so small.
so i was realizing that when i was in that spot and suddenly V makes that comment about my sizing.. i dont even know if he was pissed or if he wanted to help me lol but it made me think about it again and i realized that on a bad river, with a smaller sizing i can check-fold to a river jam (i would call a small bet)

the thing is i just started playing snap (used to play zoom in the past) and i only know a few players there. so as it's not possible to use a hud there, i try to be as balanced as possible against regs but i know, most regs at the micros have big leaks so i also adjust to that.
so in this hand i wonder if it's now time to get more gto or if i should just do the same as at 5nl (5nl is no big difference to 10nl on 888poker on the regular tables at least)

Thanks Haze of Spades, glad to know that we are in the same line of thought here. You can achieve the same goal betting 1/3 pot in semi-dry boards like that against Regulars, most against them that we have to worry and play the best game possible.
When we decide to make huge C-bet sizing in 3bet Pots against a Regular (decent TAGs and Lags), we are unbalancing our range.
I defend that it is good to play GTO versus Regulars until they start to show weaknesses. Otherwise, it is very hard to exploit a Regular who is playing GTO with exploitative approach, specially when we are out of position to the X Regular.
Our winrate is so small versus Regulars when we play correct ( 1 BB/100) that I really don't see many reasons to get fancy with the only part of the game that we really control: the bet size (quoting Gripsed).
Again, I still have more reasons to believe that when you 3bet a Regular out of position you expect him/her to call with worst hands. If not you expect him to Fold in the Flop. If not be aware, because Regular, even the weaker ones, use to think about the game, they rarely behave as Whales and Fishes, for instance.
It will be a hard time for a good Regular to Call you, even in position, with a 4x raise size with a huge part of his range such as 22-66, and some combos which might include Jx, Qx, Kx Ax (I cannot picture an abstract range that could include both Button and Cut-off), some Off-suited Broadways and Off-Suited-connectors will not call laughing a 4x bet, even in position because the odds are odd! (omg! the odds are not so good as a 3.5x, 3x or even some crazy players who elect to make mini-raise giving ridiculous odds to a Villain plus Position)
Versus a Whale or a Fish (considering 10 NLHE and stakes under such as 5 NL and 2 NL),
in a heads-up situation, where I am in the Big Blind with 10-15% of my 3betting light Range and then comes a limp, or a raise coming from a Fish IP, I elect to raise which size I found more suitable and profitable for the situation, and clearly unbalance my range, because against Whales and Fishes GTO does not make any sense.
I have edge postflop against him and can get easily rid of strange scenarios and board textures. 5x is a size that I use against Fishes, when I am in the Big Blind (depending on Stack sizes)

Note about Stack Sizes: If the Fish in the Button has something between 20-40 BB of Effectve Stack (which are not uncommon at all at 10 NL and under) and he limps I can raise him safely with 10% Range, but I also can simply check sometimes, because his Effective Stack behind is not so interesting for a postflop game. He has just a little couple of Blinds left, and if we hit anything in a spot like that we are almost pushed by the SPR to go against this weaker player.
If the Fish in the Button has something between 40-60, I might call some mini-raises from the BB and make 3bets of whatever size I think is better for the player in question. Sometimes Smaller, sometimes huge. But, again, in a situation like this where Villain has at maximum 60 BB we are going to be commited a fair chunk of times
The best scenario versus a broken stack Fish, in my humble opinion, is when he is with 80-99 BB of Effective Stack, and even better if the Fish is Deep Stacked (150 BB or over), we can explore our creativity and do a lot of fancy stuff, such as big 3bet sizing, big C-bet sizing with ANY size we believe is better and as most caller and weaker the player is, I believe that bigger and bigger our bets should be.
They will continue with a so weak part of their range and fold to pressure either in the Turn or in the River that I believe it becomes automatically profitable to try to bluff a Fish with a decent Effective Stack behind, for when I hit my Top Pair Top Kicker be paid by worst Top Pair, be paid by smaller pocket pairs who got "sticky" to the Pot, reasoning that we in the Big Blind were simply bluffing, they will continue with draws, miss them and shove the River sometimes, and once in a lifetime these guys will hit the nuts.
Versus a Fish in a 3bet pot out of position when I hit a Top Pair like you did versus a Regular, Haze of Spades, I start to put all the money in and I do strange C-bet sizing which might confound and disturb the mind of a weaker player, who tends to read overbets as bluffs. So we are comfortable betting 1/2 Pot in the Flop (if it is the case of course, sometimes we don't want a Fish to fold the weaker parts of his Range, but when we know the player will pay at least two streets of value with a HUGE part of his range, we bet as much as we want) and continuing with 2/3, 3/4, even 150% Pot, 200% pot, whatever size you believe you will provoke the Fish a lot and make him call or put a shove upon you with worst hands (most of times).