$10 NLHE 6-max: Line check, sizing too small on turn and river?

C

c0rnBr34d

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
May 6, 2019
Total posts
991
Chips
1
PokerStars - $0.10 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

BTN: 98.3 BB
Hero (SB): 107.1 BB
BB: 148.1 BB
UTG: 107.7 BB
MP: 177.8 BB
CO: 128.6 BB (VP 21/ PR 15/ 3B 7, FCB 56, 277 Hands)

Hero posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has Q A

fold, fold, CO raises to 4 BB, fold, Hero raises to 14 BB, fold, CO calls 10 BB

Flop: (29 BB, 2 players) Q 4 A
Hero checks, CO checks

Turn: (29 BB, 2 players) 2
Hero bets 14 BB, CO calls 14 BB

River: (57 BB, 2 players) 9
Hero bets 40 BB, CO calls 40 BB,

Still adjusting to online dynamics. At 2NL and 5NL it's so easy to overbet and get calls from worse. I'm finding at 10NL Vs are finding more correct river folds. As a result I've been less aggressive with sizing. Not sure where the sweet spot is here. I think I like 2/3 pot turn and 3/4 or full pot river here but in the moment playing 3 tables at a time I sized down for value. Thoughts?
 
eetenor

eetenor

Legend
Platinum Level
Joined
Mar 5, 2019
Total posts
2,163
Awards
2
Chips
169
PokerStars - $0.10 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

BTN: 98.3 BB
Hero (SB): 107.1 BB
BB: 148.1 BB
UTG: 107.7 BB
MP: 177.8 BB
CO: 128.6 BB (VP 21/ PR 15/ 3B 7, FCB 56, 277 Hands)

Hero posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has Q A

fold, fold, CO raises to 4 BB, fold, Hero raises to 14 BB, fold, CO calls 10 BB

Flop: (29 BB, 2 players) Q 4 A
Hero checks, CO checks

Turn: (29 BB, 2 players) 2
Hero bets 14 BB, CO calls 14 BB

River: (57 BB, 2 players) 9
Hero bets 40 BB, CO calls 40 BB,

Still adjusting to online dynamics. At 2NL and 5NL it's so easy to overbet and get calls from worse. I'm finding at 10NL Vs are finding more correct river folds. As a result I've been less aggressive with sizing. Not sure where the sweet spot is here. I think I like 2/3 pot turn and 3/4 or full pot river here but in the moment playing 3 tables at a time I sized down for value. Thoughts?

Thank U 4 Posting.

Do your villains trap KK Pre?

Do they check behind AJ on that turn or river?

What pairs are they calling on turn or river for that sizing?

What value vs bluffs do you have in SB that would play like that?

What hands are you targeting that would not bet if checked too?

Do your villains turn missed hands into bluffs on the turn or river? How often?

If our villain has an Ax would they bet turn -call a check raise on the river?

Would the villain raise a 1BB river bet? What about other sizing looking weak, would they raise a blocker looking bet?

As stated your player pool can find folds but is it skill or passiveness?

If they are passive then your line could be bet 40% flop 12- 40% turn 20 - 33% river 30.

62 vs 54 BB post flop. Plus villain may suicide raise that river bet.

Vs passive river folding flush draws or KJ gutters etc... we would win 32 BB vs 14 BB

Just some thoughts

Hope this helps
:):)
 
Aballinamion

Aballinamion

Sleeping with the Dark Lady of the Sith
Loyaler
Joined
Dec 4, 2017
Total posts
2,517
Awards
3
BR
Chips
331
Nice hand

PokerStars - $0.10 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

BTN: 98.3 BB
Hero (SB): 107.1 BB
BB: 148.1 BB
UTG: 107.7 BB
MP: 177.8 BB
CO: 128.6 BB (VP 21/ PR 15/ 3B 7, FCB 56, 277 Hands)

Hero posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has Q A

fold, fold, CO raises to 4 BB, fold, Hero raises to 14 BB, fold, CO calls 10 BB

Flop: (29 BB, 2 players) Q 4 A
Hero checks, CO checks

Turn: (29 BB, 2 players) 2
Hero bets 14 BB, CO calls 14 BB

River: (57 BB, 2 players) 9
Hero bets 40 BB, CO calls 40 BB,

Still adjusting to online dynamics. At 2NL and 5NL it's so easy to overbet and get calls from worse. I'm finding at 10NL Vs are finding more correct river folds. As a result I've been less aggressive with sizing. Not sure where the sweet spot is here. I think I like 2/3 pot turn and 3/4 or full pot river here but in the moment playing 3 tables at a time I sized down for value. Thoughts?

Hi there c0rnBr34d, how you doing? Happy 2020 for you, family and friends! Let it come full of joy, health and prosperity. Thank you very much for posting your hand.
Respect always and GG and GL at the tables!
About the hand, I love your 3bet Preflop, because it seems you had information in the Villain that it doesn't fold very much to 3bets, it will call something like 44% of times Anyways, most of times we are never calling from the SB.
The I way I play cash game is very simple: 99% of times from the SB I am either 3betting or folding, because although SB is a very good position for stealing Preflop, SB is the worst position ever postflop. Our equity will realize very bad, and many times, even with stronger hands we would be beat by IP's range. :(
In the given scenario we are in the top of our range with ATs+ and many medium strong pairs such as 77+. Knowing that Villain will call almost 50% of times it is a very profitable 3bet with a very strong value hand.
CO is not likely to be in the top of its range, because it could be 4betting here, knowing that when SB 3bets, most of times, is a very strong range (or bluffs, sometimes SB is polarized).

Flop Scenario:

Flop: (29 BB, 2 players) Q♣ 4♣ A
Hero checks, CO checks

This is a flop that we can go by betting or checking, I believe both lines are close, but I would elect to C-bet here to extract value from worse aces, queens, worse two pair, flush draws and straight draws, so is very drawie flop, where I don't love giving my opponent a free card in the turn and a very cheap river for bluffing me.
I would make something between 1/3 Pot to 1/2 Pot (because it is a 3bet pot and we are out of position).
Villain seems a normal Tight Player of the field, not weak, not strong, average regular of 10 NLHE and under. I saw that it has 56% fold to 3bet, but the sample of hands it is not good enough for taking conclusions.
Villain's VPIP is 21, so I would say it likes to call a little. Given all of that, I would be C-betting here more than checking to Villain, to extract value from Ax, Qx, A4, two clubs, KT, KJ, some 88, 99, TT, JJ, QQ that Villain decided to call and would hardly be folding here, for all of these reasons IMO, it is a value bet.

Turn approach:

Turn: (29 BB, 2 players) 2
Hero bets 14 BB, CO calls 14 BB

Unfortunately, CO checked behind and we got a 2h in the turn. This card is mostly harmless to our range and now we make a decent bet and get called. What CO is calling here? A recreational would be calling two clubs, sometimes any two clubs (flush-chasers, flush bluffers), not the Kx and Ax club combos only, KJ and KT having a club would never fold here, any Ax that a recreational sees as a value hand in a 3bet pot, lol, now A2, A4 which are behind and some low and medium pocket pairs.
Once in lifetime this guy will have a set of 22 or 44, but many players are just raising right on the spot these strong sets because it needs protection versus flush+straight draw.
I like our bet here, it is a value bet because we are still ahead of CO 3bet calling range.

River nine

River is a 9d, IMO a brick because it doesn't complete anything relevant that could be beating our range, and that's awesome and it is good because it completes, maybe some weaker Two Pair such as A9 or Q9, which are dominated by our range and would never fold to a bet river. :cool:
To tell the truth, many regulars here are snap calling with AK, sometimes AJ or even raising because now SB has a lot of missed draws in its range. ;)
SB's missed draws of clubs, and missed straights could be bluffing this river trying to make a weaker player to fold better hands such as Top Pair or even Two Pair depending on the bet size.
Like I said before, almost never CO will appear in this river with a set of 4's, 2's or 9's, but it will happen from time to time, such as some crazy player that decided to slow play a set of Q's or A's. If it happens not problem, just put a note on the player and move on. :D
IMO your sizing is fine. If you have information that villain might pay you in this river with AK, bet 100% pot, because, as I said before, SB has more bluffs than values in its range right now so it is more easy for the Villain in the CO to call, even a larger price.

Regards;

Carlos 'Aballinamion' Barbosa
 
C

c0rnBr34d

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
May 6, 2019
Total posts
991
Chips
1
Thank U 4 Posting.
Thanks for your reply. Lots of questions there. I'll just touch on a few of them. I forgot to post my stats for this session but I was playing tight this session as I've just worked my free pokerstars $20 up to $100 and recently started playing 10NL. My stats are probably similar to Vs stats except my 3bet is probably even lower around 5. I don't expect V to slow play KK much but its possible. We block the most nutted combos here and we dont expect V to call a 3 bet OOP with KcJc or worse. I just don't see many draws in Vs range here with these stats on this board. If he has the flush draw then it should be the Ace high flush draw which means he also has top pair and will bet the flop when checked to almost always. If he has KK or JJ we can't get 3 streets of value so checking can induce bets or allow lighter calls on turn and river. V is on tight side but not generally passive. This hand it makes sense to be passive in position after getting 3 bet by a player that's even tighter than him. I do expect V to check AJ behind unless it is AcJc.
 
C

c0rnBr34d

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
May 6, 2019
Total posts
991
Chips
1
Hi there c0rnBr34d, how you doing? Happy 2020 for you, family and friends! Let it come full of joy, health and prosperity. Thank you very much for posting your hand.
Respect always and GG and GL at the tables!

IMO your sizing is fine. If you have information that villain might pay you in this river with AK, bet 100% pot, because, as I said before, SB has more bluffs than values in its range right now so it is more easy for the Villain in the CO to call, even a larger price.

Regards;

Carlos 'Aballinamion' Barbosa
Hey Aballinamion! I'm good thanks. Happy 2020 for you and your family as well. Appreciated. GL to you at the tables too.

In my experience players with VP under 25 seem to be more fit or fold post flop. They can be aggressive but are not likely to spaz out. May be sticky as they see less flops. This particular V has a pretty good PFR though so I expect his range to be wider in position. Not enough hands to know if he has a 4 bet range but I suspect he does given his PFR and 3bet percentage. Given he called the 3 bet I think his flush draws are probably AcTc+, KcJc, and JcTc. All of his AcXc combos should bet flop, KcJc and JcTc also have a gut shot straight and should bet flop as well. If he doesn't have clubs I don't expect him to be chasing the gut shot straights. So if we bet flop we are targeting a very thin range in my opinion and there aren't a lot of turn cards that we don't like. So I prefer to check here and induce bets and calls on later streets. We got a great run out so as you suggest our biggest challenge this hand is sizing which may be the toughest part of the game. Thanks for the feedback. I'm still thinking turn and river are a tad small. If we go 2/3 on the turn it creates a larger pot and even if we got 2/3 again on the river we extract much more value all the times we win. If they have a set I think it's a cooler and we have to pay it off with top two in a 3 bet pot blocking the nutted combos heavily. Thanks again.
 
WVHillbilly

WVHillbilly

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Nov 7, 2007
Total posts
22,973
Chips
0
I like your river sizing but I'd bet more on the turn (~22 bb). This allows our river bet to be larger in actual terms but roughly the same in relation to the pot size.
 
liuouhgkres

liuouhgkres

Visionary
Bronze Level
Joined
Dec 21, 2016
Total posts
920
Awards
2
KH
Chips
33
I think your turn and river sizings are ok. But I would c-bet small on the flop. This flop is hits your range, I would bet range on this flop.
 
TheDude6622

TheDude6622

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Jul 30, 2018
Total posts
2,348
Awards
2
Chips
0
Your bets extracted a lot of value and a good chunk of your opponents stack. I would have also c-bet the flop, bigger bet on the turn, and shoved the river to make it look like a missed flush draw.
 
eetenor

eetenor

Legend
Platinum Level
Joined
Mar 5, 2019
Total posts
2,163
Awards
2
Chips
169
Thanks for your reply. Lots of questions there. I'll just touch on a few of them. I forgot to post my stats for this session but I was playing tight this session as I've just worked my free PokerStars $20 up to $100 and recently started playing 10NL. My stats are probably similar to Vs stats except my 3bet is probably even lower around 5. I don't expect V to slow play KK much but its possible. We block the most nutted combos here and we dont expect V to call a 3 bet OOP with KcJc or worse. I just don't see many draws in Vs range here with these stats on this board. If he has the flush draw then it should be the Ace high flush draw which means he also has top pair and will bet the flop when checked to almost always. If he has KK or JJ we can't get 3 streets of value so checking can induce bets or allow lighter calls on turn and river. V is on tight side but not generally passive. This hand it makes sense to be passive in position after getting 3 bet by a player that's even tighter than him. I do expect V to check AJ behind unless it is AcJc.


Thank U 4 Responding.

So you are targeting a range that has AK? AQ AJ QQ JJ 1010-? KQ.
If villain is TAG not passive and expects your range to be and check AA AK AQ AJ KK QQ JJ on flop. What would villain expect you to bluff on river for 40BB considering you should have 2/3 value 1/3 bluffs?

With Ace and Q on flop would you be 40 BB bluffing small pairs?

As you yourself implied in the bet sizing question your bets are very standard for a spot like this. But you suggest the villain thinks you are tighter than them so what do you 3 bet from SB then bluff river with, that villain thinks they beat?

Lastly is this villain thinking in-depth or just playing multiple tables with standard lines. Would this villain change their line if you checked river or blocker bet it?

The 40 BB bet on the river does not allow villain to make a mistake if they range you correctly. It is fold the correct amount and call the correct amount. That means we are relying on hand distribution to get our value.

We want to try to make our villains make mistakes so if we can narrow our villains range to the hands that you suggest, they will fold to 40BB correctly but they may fold very closely to the same range for a river shove. If the criteria for your assumptions are correct.

Hope this helps
:):)
 
John A

John A

Poker Zion Coach
Silver Level
Joined
Apr 12, 2012
Total posts
6,492
Awards
3
Chips
37
River sizing is a little bit too large. The flop should be a c-bet near 100% of the time. I think solvers will say 100% actually. Don't have one on this system, but how solvers think is pretty easy to understand.

Turn needs to be larger. River is a bit large but it worked in this case because you didn't bet the flop and you bet small on the turn so you could rep more busted draws. But if you bet the flop and turn, you could have bet the river 1/2 pot or so and made much more on this hand.
 
C

c0rnBr34d

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
May 6, 2019
Total posts
991
Chips
1
River sizing is a little bit too large. The flop should be a c-bet near 100% of the time. I think solvers will say 100% actually. Don't have one on this system, but how solvers think is pretty easy to understand.

Turn needs to be larger. River is a bit large but it worked in this case because you didn't bet the flop and you bet small on the turn so you could rep more busted draws. But if you bet the flop and turn, you could have bet the river 1/2 pot or so and made much more on this hand.
Thanks. I realize it's standard to c-bet this flop. I'm trying to have some check backs in my range on flops where we are strong and in a 3 bet pot this looked like an ideal candidate. Assuming we aren't c-betting 100% of flops we hit, what kind of flops can we check? Do solvers or humans have any type of guidelines for creating these ranges?

There are no straight draws we heavily block sets, V shouldn't have many flush draws and I feel like we may get more folds than we want from KK, Qx, JJ, if we try to go bet / bet / bet here but maybe it doesn't matter as much as I think. My thought was that if we double barrel we fold out more Ax and more KK, Qx, hands than if we x, b, b. If V does have a flush draw or Ax they are more likely to bet behind us on the flop or raise turn with a delayed c-bet. Do you have a feel for how solvers decide when to check value hands?
 
Last edited:
C

c0rnBr34d

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
May 6, 2019
Total posts
991
Chips
1
Thank U 4 Responding.

So you are targeting a range that has AK? AQ AJ QQ JJ 1010-? KQ.
If villain is TAG not passive and expects your range to be and check AA AK AQ AJ KK QQ JJ on flop. What would villain expect you to bluff on river for 40BB considering you should have 2/3 value 1/3 bluffs?

With Ace and Q on flop would you be 40 BB bluffing small pairs?

As you yourself implied in the bet sizing question your bets are very standard for a spot like this. But you suggest the villain thinks you are tighter than them so what do you 3 bet from SB then bluff river with, that villain thinks they beat?

Lastly is this villain thinking in-depth or just playing multiple tables with standard lines. Would this villain change their line if you checked river or blocker bet it?

The 40 BB bet on the river does not allow villain to make a mistake if they range you correctly. It is fold the correct amount and call the correct amount. That means we are relying on hand distribution to get our value.

We want to try to make our villains make mistakes so if we can narrow our villains range to the hands that you suggest, they will fold to 40BB correctly but they may fold very closely to the same range for a river shove. If the criteria for your assumptions are correct.

Hope this helps
:):)
It's hard to know in detail how deep V is thinking or how they will react. In a nutshell, the idea here was that we are only getting three streets of value from AK and maybe something like Ac9c. Most other hands that call 3 streets will beat us. So we decided to deviate from the standard line by checking flop and going for our 2 streets on turn and river rather than flop and turn. Checking flop could also cause V to more heavily weigh our range to hands that don't like the Ace like KK or JJ or KQs. Also, since the second street is the river there is no fear of "if I call this bet and dont improve will I just have to fold later?". This could cause V to fold hands like AJ on the turn if we bet flop and barrel where V may call two streets if we bet turn and river instead. We could also induce bets from KK, JJ type hands that may have just folded to a flop c-bet. Not to say this strategy is correct, this was just my thinking and approach at the time. After flop goes check, check we aren't bluffing if we bet turn with KK. And after we don't get raised betting river may or may not be considered a bluff depending on how you range V.
 
freddydr87

freddydr87

League Champion
Bronze Level
Joined
Dec 26, 2018
Total posts
4,186
Awards
32
Chips
358
I would Cbet that Flop there were a flush draw so you should protect your hand. i guess thats why vilain call turn and river,he maigh though that you flop a flushdraw and bet it T and bluff it river when didnt hit. Anywais iff vilain has AK,KK,AJ he would call you 3 barrels.
 
eetenor

eetenor

Legend
Platinum Level
Joined
Mar 5, 2019
Total posts
2,163
Awards
2
Chips
169
It's hard to know in detail how deep V is thinking or how they will react. In a nutshell, the idea here was that we are only getting three streets of value from AK and maybe something like Ac9c. Most other hands that call 3 streets will beat us. So we decided to deviate from the standard line by checking flop and going for our 2 streets on turn and river rather than flop and turn. Checking flop could also cause V to more heavily weigh our range to hands that don't like the Ace like KK or JJ or KQs. Also, since the second street is the river there is no fear of "if I call this bet and dont improve will I just have to fold later?". This could cause V to fold hands like AJ on the turn if we bet flop and barrel where V may call two streets if we bet turn and river instead. We could also induce bets from KK, JJ type hands that may have just folded to a flop c-bet. Not to say this strategy is correct, this was just my thinking and approach at the time. After flop goes check, check we aren't bluffing if we bet turn with KK. And after we don't get raised betting river may or may not be considered a bluff depending on how you range V.


Thank U 4 Responding.

Your thinking is good vs tight weak players and may have been the best strategy vs this villain.
The bet small bet bigger line is so standard a value line with QQ and AA and AQ that the a weak tight player should be folding even KQ on the river.

So if you were targeting a weak tight player your turn bet could be bigger to make the player think you want a fold, then river could be small to get the player to think how can I fold KQ you might have JJ-. Again only if they are thinking about what you are trying to do.
If they do not change their line and are weak tight then we can bet half pot turn- 40% pot or less river. We give villains the "have to call that sizing" bet when they hold JJ KQ
QJ suited, if they over fold.

One thing to think about is this villain seeing your stats might not want to scare you away and that is why they did not bet flop. If they showed up with AK just call 40 BB river it may have been to let you drive the action for them.

Hope this helps

:):)


Hope this helps
 
Top