$10 NLHE 6-max: Can I Fold Top Pair and Flush Draw?

[Jamalex]

Hey everyone! This time I'll just post my hand and leave any of my own comments for the end so it doesn't look as confusing. Also I saw people refer to themselves as hero and others as villains so I'll try that this time.

LJ (Hero) 244bb
HJ (Villain 1) 60bb
CO (Villain 2) 376bb
BTN 102bb
SB 104bb
BB 23bb

Action
Hero is dealt KcJc in the LJ
Hero raises to 3bb
Villain 1 calls
Villain 2 calls
BTN folds
SB folds
BB calls

Pot 12bb
Flop
8s 4c kh
BB checks
Hero bets 8bb
Villain 1 calls
Villain 2 calls
BB folds

Pot 34bb
Turn
8s 4c Kh 5c
Hero bets 24bb
Villain 1 Shoves for 49bb
Villain 2 3-bets to 137bb
Hero 4-bet shoves all-in for 233bb
Villain 2 Calls
Hero shows KcJc (Top Pair and Flush Draw)
Villain 1 Shows Kd4d (Top and Bottom Pair)
Villain 2 Shows 4s4h (Bottom Set)

Pot 521bb
River
8s 4c Kh 5c Qh
Villain 2 wins with set of 4's

So I'm not sure if I played correctly and just lost, played too aggressively on any street, made a bad shove on the turn and should have folded, or should just stop playing KJs all together lol.

A little background on Villain 1 was very tilted (specifically with me) and would call any raise I made from any position with any two cards and limped every hand they played. And if I was in the BB they would min raise to 2bb every time...I mean everytime...Anyways I was a big fan of them.

Villain 2 is a very very loose player capable bluffing with complete air. I do not think they are a bad player, played with them many times and they are pretty skilled at figuring out the right play to make regardless of the hand they hold. But they have been caught bluffing in some pretty big pots with nothing and they 3 bet more then anyone else I play with.

Any and all thoughts on this hand are much appreciated, thanks!

 

[fundiver199]

Preflop and flop is pretty standard. However when two players call you on the flop, I think, its time to slow down a bit and think about, what they might have. V1 called with 2 guys left to act behind him, and V2 overcalled with 1 guy left to act behind him. This mean, that unless they are pretty bad, they really should not have a lot of junky stuff like second pair, weird gutshot draws etc.

And since there are no good draws available, this is actually a little bit alarming. For sure one of them could have a hand like KT, and you coolered him. But they could also have KQ. And if one of them has KT, that only leaves one K in the deck, so what then does the other one have? Not saying that its always a set, but I am certainly not surpriced to see a set.

So I kind of prefer to check the turn and then see, what develops behind. If it checks through, that is cool, since you have one of the draws covered. And if someone puts out a standard bet, you can certainly check-call. However when you do bet out, and then this action happen behind you, I think, you have a very clear fold. You are more than 200BB deep, and V2 is just never bluffing in this spot. Even if he gets you to fold, he still need to beat V1 at showdown, so bluffing makes no sense.

 

[Jamalex]

Preflop and flop is pretty standard. However when two players call you on the flop, I think, its time to slow down a bit and think about, what they might have. V1 called with 2 guys left to act behind him, and V2 overcalled with 1 guy left to act behind him. This mean, that unless they are pretty bad, they really should not have a lot of junky stuff like second pair, weird gutshot draws etc.

And since there are no good draws available, this is actually a little bit alarming. For sure one of them could have a hand like KT, and you coolered him. But they could also have KQ. And if one of them has KT, that only leaves one K in the deck, so what then does the other one have? Not saying that its always a set, but I am certainly not surpriced to see a set.

So I kind of prefer to check the turn and then see, what develops behind. If it checks through, that is cool, since you have one of the draws covered. And if someone puts out a standard bet, you can certainly check-call. However when you do bet out, and then this action happen behind you, I think, you have a very clear fold. You are more than 200BB deep, and V2 is just never bluffing in this spot. Even if he gets you to fold, he still need to beat V1 at showdown, so bluffing makes no sense.

Thank you for your answer! I think in the moment, I definately was not thinking of what hands Villain 2 would have in this spot. Honestly when Villain 1 Shoved I thought he could be shoving any king (He did have 2 pair but I personally think he would have shoved any K on me by they way he was playing vs me) When Villain 2 3-bet, my dumb brain took it as a sign of weakness and thought he was trying to fold out my hand to get it in with whatever Villain 1 had (Looking back this is so stupid) and I think I was tilted in the session as well which may have had an impact in my shove. (And the shove was less then twice what he bet so what is he even folding) I hope I can learn from this bad play, thanks again!

As for the other parts of the hand I think I know I was playing too aggressively, I should have thought avout my decisions more and what hands they could be calling me with on such a dry board. Your answer was very informative!

 

[Sidetracked]

I think calling V1's shove to 49BBs is OK.

Once V2 shoves his whole stack, I think you have to fold. One of the players will have you drawing exceptionally thin (in this case V1).

The more players in the pot, the stronger your hand has to be to continue.

 

[bgomez89]

@fundiver, I think I'm good with a bet on the turn but we can probably make the bet smaller (maybe 1/3-1/2pot) to get value from middle pairs that wouldnt normally continue to a turn bet. We also want to continue extracting value out of villains who called pre with some kind of King like K9s-KJs. Picking up a FD on the turn also gives us some outs against someone who flatted AK/KQ, sets, straights, and two pairs.

As played I'm never folding to the short stacks shove but I'd probably just kind of sigh call to the V2, this may not be correct though

 

[Mahdi]

It's bad to call a shove for a whole stack with a pair and not even nut flush draw, isn't it? You are not getting the right odds
Tell me if I'm wrong, pls

 

[fundiver199]

@fundiver, I think I'm good with a bet on the turn but we can probably make the bet smaller (maybe 1/3-1/2pot) to get value from middle pairs that wouldnt normally continue to a turn bet.

The thing is though, that if they are just somewhat competent, then they should not really be in there after the flop with a lot of second pair type hands, and if they have KX, its kind of a coinflip, if we have the best kicker or not. It matters, that this is a 4-way pot, because then Hero should not be doing a lot of light C-betting, and a competent player should know that. And he should also be less inclined to call, if someone else has called already.

Sure its possible, they are clusless fish, and in fact V1 probably is with his broken stack and also confirmed by the hand, he shows up with. So if he was the only one calling on the flop, I would be happy to play for stacks with top pair third kicker. However V2 overcalling sends smoke rings into the air in my opinion, because we have no sign, that he is a fish. Even preflop his range should be fairly narrow and very much concentrated on setmines. So when he also overcall on the flop, I really dont love my top pair all that much.

I do agree though, that a small turn bet would be better than a big turn bet. Going smaller will look weaker and allow V1 to think, he can still come over the top and get us to fold. As played V1 is hardly ever bluffing here, and if V2 had folded, we would mostly be calling, because we have a draw, and because we priced ourself in.

 

[theheeb1984]

Based on how the hand played, against V1 I do not blame you as I would have likely called that as well. The part that I would be concerned with is with V2 as there is no value for his bet at this point unless he has something here.

I mean looking at it from this point of view, let's just say V1 takes the whole pot, what does V2 bet get him if he is bluffing? Your shove is something I have to fight back a lot on myself but it doesn't make sense as there is no value for this at this point. I would be assuming he has 2 pair or better at the Turn and you are shoving on a draw at this point then. The moves here were to either call or fold and looking at it with hindsight it is a fold. The river would be a clear fold to his bet.

 

[Viparida]

When 2 guys pay your bet in a dry board like that, i think, you can`t continue to bet in the turn like you did. When one guy pays may be a bluff with the 2 of them it`s almost certain that at least a straight draw they would have. Besides that the turn came with a horrible card for you and you just raised your bet on this spot makes no sense. In cash games there`s not the clown level calls that occur in tournaments so be carefull to not underestimate the other players hands.