$10 NLHE 6-max: How Badly Did I Screw This Up?

[blueskies]

This is 10NL at BOL. BOL crashed on my computer so I happened to move to my cellphone before joining this table. No HUD on cellphone so I don't have data on villain, but he's not an ID I recognize and after 8 hands he seems like a typical loose newbie type.

I open to 29c from BTN with K8 suited. (Weird sizing is due to cellphone slider, hard to be precise) This is actually my first action. I had folded all previous hands as I had nothing.

Villain from BB min raises me 19c to 0.48c. I call.

Flop's 3d8s4c. He leds out with a 10c bet. I raise to 69c. He min raises me again to $1.18.

Against this kind of strange action, from experience I feel like he could have AA/KK to AK to some BS like A3 A4 or really any two overcards. (I have seen certain ppl have hands like this when they bet like that)

I call.

Turn's Qd.

He bets 20c. I call. No point in raising now since I really can't put him on a range and I am drawing to a flush.

River is 6d. Just when I am thinking about how much to bet/raise. He shoves his remaining $6.43 into the $4.02 pot.

I am thinking goddam does he have AdXd?

Can't fold the 2nd nut flush when the board is unpaired and I can't even put villain on anything. He would be doing the same with JTsuited. So I called.

Spoiler

Ad7d

What should I have done differently? Fold pre to the weird min 3bet? Fold on flop? Just flat call on flop?

 

[300HPGOD]

Probably really bad news for you to read that your thought process is the same as mine throughout this hand. Pre flop for me is a maybe or maybe not as I think on the button in a vacuum K8 suited is easily good enough to raise in an unopened pot as we should be wide from the button. I will say I factor in what the blinds are like though and if I know there is someone behind me that likes to 3 bet or is aggro or whatever I am not doing this. Not sure how many times they have 3 bet pre as you said they are loose but big difference between loose and passive pre to loose and aggressive pre. Easy call though as you are getting a good price after just a min raise.

On the flop when they min bet, I treat that as a check so when I have a vulnerable top pair I would bet here as well. Not sure I go quite as big as you did. I get the protection angle but I probably go more like 55 cents which is not a big difference but it is a difference. When you get min raised, I am thinking the same as you. This is either some moron who really has no clue what they are doing or this is the nuts (same as my thought when I see a min raise out of position pre). I would be cautious here and if the villain was someone I knew to be a barreler then there is no way I could call 3 streets down so I would fold. In this case we know little about them as it sounds so I think we call and see what happens and maybe learn some things for future hands.

On the turn I am on board with you and just call. No reason to raise and we are getting a cheap card to see flush potential so just call as you did. I dont think there is any other good option here.

On the river I am also with you (again, should be scary for you lol) in thinking that now even their AA and KK (less likely since we block) hands are in trouble and we have 2nd flush against a villain who could still be wide. A jam on the river though is scary in the sense that would even a player like this who we hope doesnt know what they are doing be jamming the river when a flush came in but only bet 20 cents on turn with AA? Probably not so this would concern me but in the end I think we have to call with K high flush here even though this does feel like villain tried to make a move on the flop, bet very small on turn since they got a draw and then pounded river when they hit. I'm still calling though and seeing what the outcome. Take massive notes on this hand for future hands with this villain.

 

[GreenDaddy1]

I'm tilted just reading this.

I can maaaaybe get away after flop raise, putting an obviously bad unknown on a possible AA or KK with all the raising. Once you know he is capable of this nonsense though, obviously it is a spot to call.

I hate the variance playing against villains like this, really have to strap in for the wild ride and hope to pick up the nuts against them before they luckbox you out of a stack or two. Some days just calling them down with pairs works out, other days when they're lucky you just wonder why you bother!

 

[loafaBREAD]

OK, before I read the spoiler...

1. Preflop is fine if he's giving you such a good price. Some people always raise that small as a 3-bet, but sometimes it can be a tell of a big hand. (This is why you need notes on V! What's his usual raise size etc.)

2. OTF ... call me a nit but I'm not raising there. Nope. Sure, he did bet small... we don't need too much protection with K8... 98 - Q8 need a bit more. Looks like you have a backdoor flush draw as well, so raising isn't that bad.

Reasons to call instead of raise? -We are actually getting a good price for our hand (maybe a bit too cheap, sure) and we do not want to get 3-bet on the flop.

Facing a 3-bet... this is a bit screwy. Post flop 3-bets at 10nl are usually nutted, but these min raises are crazy.

I'd pitch my cards here- this is why I wouldn't raise on the flop, though. We have a ton of hands that can raise a min bet and call a 3-bet, but we can be tighter than usual versus his sizing. A5ss can continue etc. (cards with double backdoors and a 3 outer to TP)

2. OTT- I think this is a spot to raise if there ever was any. As played, I see why now you call... again, I would have flatted flop and raised on the turn here. Now we have heaps of equity and don't mind a bigger pot.

3. River is a bitch. V is rarely bluffing here, so its a question of whether or not he over-plays a marginal hand. Thought process for me looks like this:

A. Is V good enough/crazy enough to bluff? (Answer is a default NO here since we have no meaningful reads...maybe he shows up with AdKx here once in a blue moon though)

B. Does V overplay marginal hands? For example, does V 1.6x pot shove the river with AA? Given the turn sizing, I'd say no.
...you could also ask if he would shove JTdd or worse... maybe he would OTR, but he'd have to be big brained to do that OTF 3-bet with JTdd (I actually think it'd be a sick flop bluff, but I digress...)

The answer to these is no for me, so I only call with the nuts here...

I will attach my 10nl BOL stats... even my losing 25nl shot lol. Just want to show that I'm a normal dude who is beating these games at a modest clip. (Included WTSD to show that I'm not a total NIT lol... can show you my other stats if needed!)

If fish tell you their hand, play becomes easy. I'll look at the spoiler now... he could be bluffing, but not often enough to justify the call (without reads).

 

[loafaBREAD]

Saw the spoiler... yea that's what I was thinking- AX gutshot draw on the flop.

Use this info to your advantage-

1. punish min re-raises with more min re-raises with the nuts
2. Punish small river bets with massive raises/shoves... conversely, play super tight versus river shoves.
3. Take a warm bath after folding the second nuts on the river vs a fish and tell yourself you made the right choice!:icon_sant

 

[GreenDaddy1]

I will attach my 10nl BOL stats... even my losing 25nl shot lol. Just want to show that I'm a normal dude who is beating these games at a modest clip. (Included WTSD to show that I'm not a total NIT lol... can show you my other stats if needed!)

If fish tell you their hand, play becomes easy. I'll look at the spoiler now... he could be bluffing, but not often enough to justify the call (without reads).

Great results. Really interested in your basic strategy for these stakes, are you just taking the TAG route and playing for big value without ever getting fancy, or do you throw some LAG play and bluffs in vs anyone who might have half a poker brain? I go through stages of crushing 5nl and 10nl then giving much of it back on the downswings, to be winning overall but only barely! Really want to even out a bit and make consistent gains rather than swing so much, feel like I need to plug some leaks

 

[loafaBREAD]

Great results. Really interested in your basic strategy for these stakes, are you just taking the TAG route and playing for big value without ever getting fancy, or do you throw some LAG play and bluffs in vs anyone who might have half a poker brain? I go through stages of crushing 5nl and 10nl then giving much of it back on the downswings, to be winning overall but only barely! Really want to even out a bit and make consistent gains rather than swing so much, feel like I need to plug some leaks

Thanks man.

Really you said it. You'll go through periods when you crush people, followed by 'downswings'... you can work to limit how much you lose, though. A spot like this is a decent example.


Pre flop I do the basic bitch strat- 3-bet or fold except for the big blind- even there I'll go 3-bet or fold if V opens to 3.5 bb or bigger.


So I'm 22/20/9 or something like that. I think it's important to play as many pots as you can to press your skill edge, but to cut your loses when your opponent sticks around.


Bluff often, as long as it's cheap (profitable!). Alvin teaches Poker has a good video on this:

But you got me thinking... maybe we could make a 10nl reg thread on here...? There's got to be plenty of people stuck in the 10nl - 50nl range since the rake is so high. Might be good to collab.:icon_bigs

 

[GreenDaddy1]

Yeah I lean on 3 bet or fold some too, though I mix in some calls on the button and call pretty wide in the big blind if I think I can bluff weaker players attempting steals out of the pot post flop.

Pleased to see you say bluff often! I have been working in a lot more bluffs this year and turned my downward sloping red line into something that meanders around only slightly under most of the time. I pay a lot of attention to villain stats in regards to folds and look for where they tend to give up often and bluff them as long as it doesn't look totally out of place. Also against players who might actually know what ranges mean I'll bluff with the nut advantage on rivers, which is something I never used to do in the past.

I'd happily contribute to a 10nl thread if we started one up. Where I'm at right now is 10nl with occasional 25nl shots.

 

[Langerz]

Posting cold without seeing other comments or spoiler

Preflop - I think this is fine. The open is standard and especially with it being a min raise calling the 3 bet is good.

Flop Min bets are always weird but I think I’d just call (at least in hindsight - in game I probably raise quite a bit). The fact that you called Preflop means you don’t have a ton of premium hands on this board since overpairs you likely would have 4 bet. Your premium range is basically sets, maybe 43s and whatever Top Pairs you’d consider premium. I think it’s better given your range to keep the pot smaller and villains range wider. Calling his min reraise is probably ok.

Turn as played this is fine. If you had called the flop and he did this I’d probably be more apt to raise here.

River I think you can make an exploitable fold here. I don’t really see him playing this way with a worse flush especially with Kd and Qd dead. It’s a weird line with a J hi flush or worse. So it’s basically the nuts or a bluff. He needs to be bluffing ~39% of the time to call. I just don’t see this being a bluff that often at 10NL with out a read. Folding the second nuts isn’t likely good GTO strategy but I think a good fold here

 

[Langerz]

Couple comments about the discussion after my first post.

First someone mentioned they treat tiny lead bets as a check and raise if they would have bet. I think that often has some merit but usually when we are the aggressor. Here since we called Preflop our range is capped so I’m more apt to call.

Another comment on the 3bet or fold discussion. Since getting back into poker I find myself calling Preflop more often. I read Mastering Small Stakes by Jonathan Little recently and he advocates more calling then I am used to. I don’t have HEM in front of me but I’m more like 25/20 then the old days of 25/23. I was actually curious about results so did a hand review and while small sample I’m profitable when I call Preflop so far. I will say I end up in some uncomfortable spots though. So much easier being the aggressor