$10 NLHE 6-max: Blinds war TPSK raised all in on turn

R

Rajten

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villain-no stats
partypoker, Hold'em No Limit - $0.05/$0.10 - 6 players
Replay this hand on Upswing Poker - https://upswingpoker.com/replayer/69A8cuPm7

Player3 (UTG): $1.27 (13 bb)
Player4 (MP): $10.00 (100 bb)
Player5 (CO): $10.77 (108 bb)
Player6 (BU): $12.30 (123 bb)
Player1 (SB): $12.35 (124 bb)
Hero (BB): $12.35 (124 bb)

Pre-Flop: ($0.15) Hero (Hero) is BB with A♠ Q♠
4 players fold, Player1 (SB) raises to $0.30, Hero (BB) 3-bets to $0.90, Player1 (SB) calls $0.60

Flop: ($1.80) 7♦ A♦ 2♣ (2 players)
Player1 (SB) checks, Hero (BB) bets $1, Player1 (SB) calls $1

Turn: ($3.80) 8♥ (2 players)
Player1 (SB) checks, Hero (BB) bets $2.40, Player1 (SB) raises to $10.45 (all-in), Hero (BB) folds

Total pot: $8.60 (Rake: $0.43)
Player1 (SB) wins $8.17

Am I nit in spots like this. What raise on turn means in 3 bet pots? I was thinking also about checking turn, and call or bet river, what do you think about this strategy in this spot?
 
Aballinamion

Aballinamion

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villain-no stats
partypoker, Hold'em No Limit - $0.05/$0.10 - 6 players
Replay this hand on Upswing Poker - https://upswingpoker.com/replayer/69A8cuPm7

Player3 (UTG): $1.27 (13 bb)
Player4 (MP): $10.00 (100 bb)
Player5 (CO): $10.77 (108 bb)
Player6 (BU): $12.30 (123 bb)
Player1 (SB): $12.35 (124 bb)
Hero (BB): $12.35 (124 bb)

Pre-Flop: ($0.15) Hero (Hero) is BB with A♠ Q♠
4 players fold, Player1 (SB) raises to $0.30, Hero (BB) 3-bets to $0.90, Player1 (SB) calls $0.60

Flop: ($1.80) 7♦ A♦ 2♣ (2 players)
Player1 (SB) checks, Hero (BB) bets $1, Player1 (SB) calls $1

Turn: ($3.80) 8♥ (2 players)
Player1 (SB) checks, Hero (BB) bets $2.40, Player1 (SB) raises to $10.45 (all-in), Hero (BB) folds

Total pot: $8.60 (Rake: $0.43)
Player1 (SB) wins $8.17

Am I nit in spots like this. What raise on turn means in 3 bet pots? I was thinking also about checking turn, and call or bet river, what do you think about this strategy in this spot?

One thing I don't love very much is to be 3-betting AQs, and AKs, even ATs, and AJs versus SB raisor: the reason is very simple, SB will always display a very far range, even NITs are stealing from time to time, so we must be calling in a very good frequency, I would say that from here I would be calling 50% of times the top of my range and 3-betting the other 50%.
If we do always 3-bet the top of our range versus the SB we give a very easy fold for a range that we know tends to be large, and when we do get call or 4-bet we are also not happy, unless when we are with KK+ and AK, but let's play poker instead of hands.

The Flop

It seems you are overplaying the top of your range a little, because you c-bet for more than 1/2 pot, and this is not necessary, we give again a very good fold for Villain because we don't expect AA and AK on SB's range, so are we trying to extract value from worst aces, such as A2, A3, A4, A7, A8, A9, AT, etc, which means, Villain can float us now with a bunch of worst aces and we cannot go OTT unless when we own AA and AK.
I guess that a 1/2 pot c-bet would have done the work just fine, if you intend to look for protection.

The Turn

Having no statistics to work with we should unfortunatley be folding this very strong hand.

Regards;

Carlos 'Aballinamion' Barbosa
 
J

Julez97

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This is a tough spot. But I think I would make the call. First off, the 8h doesn't really improve many hands, unless villain called your c-bet with 88, or A8 on the flop. A8 is possible, but with your blocker, they should only have 1 combo of this hand, A8cc. Similarly, there are only 2 possible combos of A7s, and 1 of A2s. Also, if villain had A2, A7, 22, 77, I would strongly expect them to raise the flop most of the time. So I don't expect these hands to show up all that often. I wouldn't entirely rule out villain from doing this with hands like AJ, or AQ, as fishy players often overvalue TP at lower stakes. We have no read on them, so I would treat them as an average player in the pool, and not a nit.

We also need to consider some draws they may use as bluffs. Hands like 54dd, 65dd, 89dd, T9dd, J9dd, JTdd could all be used as reasonable bluffs. Maybe even some nut flushes are possible. We don't block any of these draws.

So with everything considered, I would probably call as AQss is a really good bluff catcher. We block value combos, and unblock bluffs.Villains line also doesn't make a lot of sense, unless they just binked a lucky turn. This is always going to be a high variance spot, and occasionally villain will just have us crushed with a set. However, it will be rare, and in most cases, even if we are behind, we will still have outs to improve.
 
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Rajten

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Thank you for comments, on turn I lost all my time bank it was very difficult decision for me. We were slighly deeper 120bb effective and I've already sat at the table so I decided to fold, but later it turned out that, he plays in very aggresive way, so I regret that I didn't call here. What does raise on turn in 3 bet pot mean nowadays for you?. I noticed that, many players on this stakes, raise as semi-bluff for example with flush draw, after watching some high stakes games.
 
Aballinamion

Aballinamion

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Thank you for comments, on turn I lost all my time bank it was very difficult decision for me. We were slighly deeper 120bb effective and I've already sat at the table so I decided to fold, but later it turned out that, he plays in very aggresive way, so I regret that I didn't call here. What does raise on turn in 3 bet pot mean nowadays for you?. I noticed that, many players on this stakes, raise as semi-bluff for example with flush draw, after watching some high stakes games.

Most of average regulars and professionals are raising for bluff in some spots where they gain some equity. The problem is that many players are imitating this style of play and most of them imitate in a wrong way:

Let's look whales for example. A whale truly believes that any two suited cards are good enough to be fighting for a 100 blinds pot or even more. So, they elect to play "garbage" from any position, and begin to open J3s from EP, to call 32s from the BB and SB and when they hit a flush they put all the chips in, regardless of any reading or concern.

The Aggro Donkey is another type of whale, but the Aggro Fish it is going to start to bluff any two suited cards+flush draws, any type of gutshot, and all of the OESD.

If we consider the ammount of combos we are gambling, if we do elect to invest everytime we pick up some equity, we are going to get broke very soon:
First, our bluffs are not passing through everytime, sometimes we are going to lose a lot bluffing, because when we do bluff based on mathematics, there is a probability of, let's assume 70% of chance that Villain would fold if we do push OTT or OTR, but this is just a number and sometimes Villain will call our missed draw OTR, and this is not wrong for any of the players.

If we do not bluff anything on the river, we are so boring and tedious and experient players are going to take all of our bankroll for them very easyly. So we pick up some logical bluffs, such as missed OESD+FD to put up all-in on certain rivers, because Villain could not call with 'anything', but with a decent hand at least.
We go all-in with our missed draws OTR, not because we are very good, because it looks good for our image, but because we also do it when we own 'the nuts', when we have TPTK, Two Pair, Sets and Straights in boards, where, OTR it didn't complete a scary monster.

However, fishes and aggro donkeys have no ideia at all of how to use this logic: they are going to bluff you either more often than they should or they would simply never bluff (classic passive fish example).
The passive fish we expect it to be never bluffing, so when this guy comes raising preflop, in a 6-MAX table, IP, to 4x, I am folding quite a great deal of hands and 3-betting only with KK+ and AKs. Why? Because this passive fish plays "faced-up", it is showing for us it is hole cards by the sizings of its raises and for its overall behavior/perceived range at the table:

You look for a passive fish after played more than 1 thousands hands with this guy that its VPIP is 30 and its PFR is 5! This is preposterous and almost always the Aggression Factor is going to vary from 0,1 to 2,5.
You are going to find very good players with Aggression Factor of 2.5 but a lot of passive fishes as well.
So, VPIP 30, PFR 5, AF 1,5, we know that when this guy raises preflop, it is raising at most 5% of hands (only the sweet premium hands), and when this guy limps it has a lot of suited hands and connectors, not 'absolute trash' as many regulars want to believe.

Now, the Aggro Donkey, I don't have many hand history with this guys, I guess that an example would be a player with 640 hands played with, for a 6-MAX table with VPVIP 28, PFR 25 AF 4.2 (guy is bluffing way too much).
Remember, both the aggro as the passive fish have no ideia how to bluff, so be careful with their sizings, it is a great tell. Besides, never forget the basics of poker, the fundamentals, we need to be thinking about pot odds always, so when a fish raises to 5x preflop, I am not simply calling down from the BB because the opponent is a fish, I am folding sometimes even very good hands such as AJ, AQ, KQ, KJ, because I know this guy has no bluffs on its range when it raises so large.

Now, the perceived range, the behavior of some player in a table for a short period of time is very dangerous and tricky: a real good player knows how to play like a NIT, like a FISH, like a TAG and like a LAG.
For a short period of time (let's suppose 100 hands), a player can have lots of luck and run very hot for a period of 10 minutes, 15 minutes, sometimes even 30 minutes that the player simply hits everything. This is variance, this is going to happen and all players are going to take advantage of this temporary luck.
For example, I was dealt pocket aces (AA) 3 times in a row, once playing a regular table.
It is impossible right? We got dealt AA 1 out of 220 hands? So, how it is possible that we get AA 3 times in a row?
Yes, we can also hit 3 full-houses in a row followed by a Straight Flush and a Quads, because anything is possible.
So, sometimes we see a player raising too much, betting too much and we start to assume the player is overplaying/bluffing and we begin the leveling wars. The problem is that we don't have enough hands played to say for sure if Villain is overplaying or if Villain it is is a hot streak, a very luck moment.

So, after all of that, we are bluffing, but we are not bluffing a 100% of our combos as the aggro fishes, and we are never trying to emulate what players do at the High Stakes.
High Stakes is a completely different story and we should completely forget it when discussing the micros and the mid stakes.
IMO, High Stakes (Cash) are just entertainement and show business, not real NLHE Poker.

Regards;

Carlos 'Aballinamion' Barbosa
 
P

pokeherface

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I think against an unknown its fine but against good loose aggressive or known maniacs I would lean to calling
using at least top2pair here to call against unknowns its a bvb its even more likely he will call with 78s 88 77 even if he he has 9Ts here he still has a lot of equity in this case you dont beat anything but flush draws

with the way the hand was played you dont always need to be betting turn here you can slowdown and bet r. small on any non 3rd flush card to (to pot control and also get more value from hands like 99-JJ AJo/s) if he raises river its a clear fold but they're even less likely to bluff missed draws on the river
 
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c0rnBr34d

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Semi grunch, I like your line here. I think this should be pretty standard against an unknown V. Blind vs Blind hands can get wild. We are too strong to flat pre. Since SB opening range is so wide and our 3 bet range can then also be wider I think SB can continue with a wider than "normal" range for a 3 bet pot. Flop bet is perhaps a tad large for a 3 bet pot but given dynamics and ranges V should still have enough flush draws Ax and pairs to make this ok. Problem is, all the times we miss the flop we don't want to be betting this large bloating an already 3 bet pot. Turn seems fine as we want to hammer away for value. When we get raised here against an unknown on the turn I think it's correct to let it go until we have better reads. It should not bother us later to find out that V had more weak hands in his range than we thought. We could not have known that at the time. We can only make each decision with the information we have available at that time. We can adjust in the future.
 
John A

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It's a blind battle so your opponents range is going to be wider here. You'll be up against A7, 87, A8, 77, AQ, (AJ & AK will roughly cancel out because AK w/ 4-bet a most of the time and AJ won't check / jam often) and diamonds. It's a pretty straight forward range... so now, bust out the equity calculator.
 
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