$10 NLHE 6-max: AQs deepstacked(for real this time), UTG raise

[ComplexPlaya]

If he does have Ax you still get plenty of value on the river and don't scare off the pocket pairs. Also, if he does have Ax he should be betting that turn.. Therefore, it slightly decreases the chance of him having Ax and increases the chance of him having a PP or 87s or something. (Not to be to results orientated)

Seriously, this is really bad. Ax should not be betting the turn unless it's 2 pair or AK,why would Ax bet there? For value? Against what? backdoor FD that hero cbet with? lol

Do the math, you are missing a ton more value against Ax than against some hypothetical pocket pair that called an A high flop, would fold turn but call river

 

[-Phil Ivey27]

Seriously, this is really bad. Ax should not be betting the turn unless it's 2 pair or AK,why would Ax bet there? For value? Against what? backdoor FD that hero cbet with? lol

Do the math, you are missing a ton more value against Ax than against some hypothetical pocket pair that called an A high flop, would fold turn but call river

Ax possibly bets here because he doesn't want to let off another card or because he wants to feel where his villain is at. If he's putting the OP on a hand range of JJ ,QQ, KK, AQ, AK with a bet here he finds out does he have a big pair or a big ace. As if he checks with this Ax the river bet by the OP is a confusing bet for him.

EDIT: Actually, I disagree with my own statement here, he most likely wants to showdown Ax here so there would be no reason to bet. LOL. I still like the check on the turn because a turn bet can easily get AJ/A10 to muck/could lose a bet to AK, and these hands should call a river bet after an awkward turn check.

 

[bgomez89]

And you were counting on a low river card to get value out of them again?
That's too much fancy playing, the bulk of the range you want to get value from is Ax hands so target that part of his range

what are the Ax hands you put him on?

 

[KardKlub]

Yeah seems to be a trend with his posts, it's the MUBS as Baluga calls it - monsters under the bed syndrome. No offense KardKlub, but being too passive only means you're going to severely chop your winrate. You really want to give a random 10nl tag credit for folding AJ and down or mid pairs here ?

No offence taken, but I would have bet the turn for value. That's not passive play. Infact I think you agree. In my previous posts in this post I've never said checking turn was good.

 

[ComplexPlaya]

what are the Ax hands you put him on?

I mean you were at the table, if you really think his only aces here are AQ-AK then c/f. But if you don't have that read normally there are more, and you can expect any ace to call 3 barrels from you

 

[-Phil Ivey27]

I mean you were at the table, if you really think his only aces here are AQ-AK then c/f. But if you don't have that read normally there are more, and you can expect any ace to call 3 barrels from you

If it's not AQ-AK then AJ/A10 should be foldable unless this guys a weak player.

 

[WVHillbilly]

If it's not AQ-AK then AJ/A10 should be foldable unless this guys a weak player.

People don't call 3bets with AJ/AT to fold them when they hit TP.

 

[-Phil Ivey27]

People don't call 3bets with AJ/AT to fold them when they hit TP.

Yeah that's true.

 

[ComplexPlaya]

People don't call 3bets with AJ/AT to fold them when they hit TP.

This +100000

Nobody at 10nl folds any ace there. If AJ/AT were "foldable" you would just bluff relentlessly with any two cards and win a bunch

 

[baudib1]

Bet $3 on the river and hope he calls with JJ.

 

[bgomez89]

This +100000

Nobody at 10nl folds any ace there. If AJ/AT were "foldable" you would just bluff relentlessly with any two cards and win a bunch

yes but can we agree they AJ/AT are not a huge part of a his range? If we knew for sure that he only called 3bets with Ax then yes, we can vbet 3 streets. However we know that his range also can include QQ,JJ,TT(sometimes KK) and AK. In order to keep TT-KK in we should probably check turn.

 

[c9h13no3]

Wow this thread is a dumpster fire. We're arguing about the most obvious value bet on the river, and yet almost no one has mentioned the decision to 3-bet preflop or not.

I think 3-betting here is pretty terrible. I do not want to play a pot out of position with a hand that is going to get out kicked/get overpaired fairly often. Not to mention that his VPIP UTG is like crazy small, and we're actually a dog to a range of 10%.

42.492% { AQs }
57.508% { 22+, AJs+, KQs, AJo+ }

I think this is a clear call preflop. We're suited and our hand is pretty good, so we'll hit some sort of equity on just about every flop, so we'll be able to continue against a c-bet about 50% of the time, which will make it hard to exploit us much.

Oh, and for the record, the people saying "check the river" are idiots. Villain checked the turn, showing his desire to get to showdown cheaply. Villain almost NEVER gets to the river with air so he ain't bluffin' and he almost ALWAYS has some sort of pair with showdown value. This is the CLEAREST value bet ever, and if you can't see that you need to turn in your badge.

 

[ComplexPlaya]

yes but can we agree they AJ/AT are not a huge part of a his range? If we knew for sure that he only called 3bets with Ax then yes, we can vbet 3 streets. However we know that his range also can include QQ,JJ,TT(sometimes KK) and AK. In order to keep TT-KK in we should probably check turn.

How many Ax combos are out there, and how many QQ-TT combos ?

 

[bgomez89]

after the flop comes doesnt he only have one of two aces?


c9- as I mentioned earlier in the OP, i wasn't sure if i should 3bet here or not. My standard against this kind of player is to just call, but since we were both deep i thought i should play differently because he could call a 3bet with a wider range, open up wider utg etc. Ive asked for help with deep stack play but I haven't really gotten any suggestions.

 

[c9h13no3]

c9- as I mentioned earlier in the OP, i wasn't sure if i should 3bet here or not. My standard against this kind of player is to just call, but since we were both deep i thought i should play differently because he could call a 3bet with a wider range, open up wider utg etc. Ive asked for help with deep stack play but I haven't really gotten any suggestions.

Well AQ is a hand that mostly makes top pair. If my opponent & I are both 200bb's deep, I start losing enthusiasm for stacking AQ in a 3-bet pot when I hit top pair, since for villain to put a 200bb stack in they typically have better in a 3-bet pot.

Think of it this way: If you open to 3.5bb's, villain 3-bets to 11bb's, that puts 22ish bb's in the pot, with us having 189bb's behind. So in a 3-bet pot with double stacks, the SPR is still 8.6! If you look up SPR's you'll see that they list hands like top two, sets, and good draws as hands well suited for this type of SPR.

Since we can't get the SPR right, I typically just flat AQs here. We keep the pot small & our opponent's range wide for the times that we make a pair, and we have tons of implied odds for when we make flushes/straights. And we don't have to worry about being stuck in an in between SPR.

So oddly enough, I think you've been doing it backwards. When you're 100 big blinds deep, I 3-bet AQ more often. Because when I make top pair in a 3-bet pot, the SPR is about 4. When I'm deep, I flat more often.

And a logical extension of this is 3-betting implied odds hands when you're deep. I 3-bet small pairs and suited connectors like crazy (and I 3-bet very small) when I'm deep stacked. If villain raises 3bb's, and we 3-bet to 8bb's, we're often left with a great SPR for implied odds hands, but our opponent will still stack off with top pair & over pairs.

 

[KardKlub]

So what did happen in this hand anyway? What did op do that he wasn't happy with?

 

[bgomez89]

I vbet river and villain called with AK

 

[-Phil Ivey27]

Well AQ is a hand that mostly makes top pair. If my opponent & I are both 200bb's deep, I start losing enthusiasm for stacking AQ in a 3-bet pot when I hit top pair, since for villain to put a 200bb stack in they typically have better in a 3-bet pot.

Think of it this way: If you open to 3.5bb's, villain 3-bets to 11bb's, that puts 22ish bb's in the pot, with us having 189bb's behind. So in a 3-bet pot with double stacks, the SPR is still 8.6! If you look up SPR's you'll see that they list hands like top two, sets, and good draws as hands well suited for this type of SPR.

Since we can't get the SPR right, I typically just flat AQs here. We keep the pot small & our opponent's range wide for the times that we make a pair, and we have tons of implied odds for when we make flushes/straights. And we don't have to worry about being stuck in an in between SPR.

So oddly enough, I think you've been doing it backwards. When you're 100 big blinds deep, I 3-bet AQ more often. Because when I make top pair in a 3-bet pot, the SPR is about 4. When I'm deep, I flat more often.

And a logical extension of this is 3-betting implied odds hands when you're deep. I 3-bet small pairs and suited connectors like crazy (and I 3-bet very small) when I'm deep stacked. If villain raises 3bb's, and we 3-bet to 8bb's, we're often left with a great SPR for implied odds hands, but our opponent will still stack off with top pair & over pairs.

I like this thought process for deep stack play.. Haven't really thought of it that way. But, re-raising with small pairs maybe a little reckless

 

[LuckyChippy]

I was fast scrolling through the thread with lots of arguing about the river, got to C9's post and lolled.

My initial reaction was to flat pre and check to let him c-bet, mostly likely a check call, check turn, bet river depending on boards.

His opening range is 7% (so far) it's 6-max and he seems to be playing a fair amount of hands. His range looks to me: 22+,ATs+,KQs,AQo+ (9%), something like that. Our equity is 45% there so I hate 3-betting especially as we're deep and we get flatted OOP in a 3-bet pot and make TPSK 200bb's deep, 4-bet and always folding. It just sucks. Flatting is great cause we're suited and can make a pot size we want to play for.