$10 NLHE 6-max: 88 UTG vs BB caller

fletchdad

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Villain 20/17/6,5 over 90 hands. How much to c bet here?? If called and checked to and OTT another bad card comes?? He had been pretty agro when he plays so far, I have a LAG image but not wild.

Party Poker - $0.05/$0.10 No Limit Holdem (6 players)
Party Poker Hand Converter Tool from CardsChat.com

SB: $12.64
BB: $13.69
UTG Hero: $10
MP: $10 (sitting out)
CO: $10
BTN: $5.72

Pre-flop: ($0.15) Hero is UTG and dealt :8c4: :8d4:
Hero raises to $0.35, 3 folds, BB calls $0.25

Flop: ($0.75) :9c4: :jh4: :ac4: (3 players)
BB checks, Hero??
 
bgomez89

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.50 seems nice. I think I'm betting almost every turn too(as a bluff)
 
KardKlub

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I dont think we need to bet here. Id check behind with my fourth pair. I dont think this texture misses enough of his range.
 
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baudib1

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I dont think we need to bet here. Id check behind with my fourth pair. I dont think this texture misses enough of his range.

Do you realize you raised UTG? Our range destroys him on this board.

I'd bet pretty much everything here except the occasional AK/KK hand.
 
micromachine

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I would do my standard 3/4 pot c-bet here, but shut-down on the turn if he called. And I'd fold if he c/r the flop.
 
KardKlub

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Do you realize you raised UTG? Our range destroys him on this board.

I'd bet pretty much everything here except the occasional AK/KK hand.

We are playing a lag style and he called playing oop. IMO missIng a bet here on the flop won't make out decision any harder on the turn. We have a bluff or a weak showdown hand on a draw heavy board and we hope our opponent can fold his tp or great ev draw. I can't name many weaker hands that will call our flop bet or any better hands that will fold.

We might have position but it's sometimes not enough.

We can still rep a strong range when we check and hopefully take it down Later in the hand.
 
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baudib1

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Position is always enough. Checking here is absolutely horrible. If you're not firing this spot close to 100% you're losing a ton of money. We rep basically nothing in a single-raised pot that's strong when we check back. If you want to check KK, then you have a point but our showdown value here is very minimal.

When he calls oop vs. a strong range he has very little Ax and almost no flush draws. Therefore he has very little that can continue on this board.

However, when we check we let him realize his 25%-35% equity for free and we have our UTG range to protect/balance and his range needs to be punished thoroughly on this board.

His range has good equity and he can fold almost all of it, especially stuff like TT/Jx, so let him.

If you could eliminate the phrase "what worse hands call" from your poker thoughts 95% of the time, you will make more money.
 
KardKlub

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Hmmm. Remember we are playing lag at 6 max, his value calling range is a whole lot wider
 
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baudib1

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No it isn't. From his stats he appears to be vaguely competent and competent aggro players don't have much of a calling range OOP vs. UTG. You can discount or totally eliminate AA/AK/JJ/AJ from his range, the only thing he is going to have is maybe AQs and 99.

This is as clear a case of our range being vastly superior as you are going to get.
 
KardKlub

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What do you think FletchDad? Your the only one who really know this player?
 
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BlueNowhere

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Hate to check in this spot. this completely smashes our UTG range and we see a fold too much so it is massively profitable. Yes our hand is not strong at all and has minimal equity but the perceived range of hands he has us on completely annihlates him.

KardKlub, you're only thinking about our hand. If thats what you do every hand then it's a massive leak.
 
KardKlub

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Hmmmm, No im not. I just think we are getting more calls here than anyone else in this spot, and building a pot as a bluff is a bad idea.

If we smash his range now why dont we smash it on the turn when he checks it to us again?
 
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BlueNowhere

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Hmmmm, No im not. I just think we are getting more calls here than anyone else in this spot, and building a pot as a bluff is a bad idea.

If we smash his range now why dont we smash it on the turn when he checks it to us again?

Because we've shown no interest in the hand and a lot of Ax hands don't let him realise the equity his range has for free so our range is no longer smashing it so much and it gives him the chance to play back at us which we can do nothing about. If he's a decent player he'll jump all over our weakness. Also if a bad turn card comes even our perceived pre-flop range is in pretty bad shape to hands that he wants to continue with, let alone hands that we check, bet with. Plus our range becomes as polarised as you're likely to see and we lose a lot of FE for that reason.
 
KardKlub

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Don't get me wrong guys. 3-4 months ago I'd be saying the exact same thing as you guys.

But I have adjusted my game and so far it's paying off. I've moved away from the one question. " wow this flop hits me hard I'm going to c-bet"

Players a much better than that now.
 
MudWar

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Another reason to cbet the flop is that, the villain seems fairly aggressive and could see your check behind on the flop as an opening to steal the pot. The last thing you want is to allow an opponent to take a pot away from you oop when you had your chance to take it down ip.
 
KardKlub

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Then isn't it better to steal it back on the turn when we collect a bet?
 
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baudib1

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How many times are you going to ask? This is a 100% standard c-bet, the range of hands you open UTG and check this flop with should be extremely limited.
 
KardKlub

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I'm not asking you anything. So calm down matey.
 
Stu_Ungar

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Do you realize you raised UTG? Our range destroys him on this board.

I'd bet pretty much everything here except the occasional AK/KK hand.

What worse calls?

What better folds?

His range is weighted towards pocket pairs and we beat most of them.

If he has a draw, you arent going to double barrel so he gets to see 2 cards anyway.

List the hands, that he folds, that you beat. (He dosent fold draws)

There are very few hands that he holds that arent draws that can suckout on us by spiking a high card.

If he holds a hand like KT (I dont think he calls but say he does) he has about 40% equity and his equity is far better than yours. The problem with betting 88 here is that even if its the best hand now (so it has mathematically more equity, its really hard to extract that equity. There are so many bad cards that you wont know if your hand is still good, yet KT on the same board he has a GS, probably a BD FD and if he hits a K or a T he has a pair so you wont get him to fold when he improves (and he won't fold now) yet if he bluffs its really hard to call a bet with 88 on a later street (and by hard I mean spewy.. i.e. it takes a lot of reads to actually assign a player with a range you can profit from if he calls)
 
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Stu_Ungar

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If you could eliminate the phrase "what worse hands call" from your poker thoughts 95% of the time, you will make more money.

Why not just tape the bet button down and eliminate the player too?

What your basically saying is that betting ATC is correct in almost any situation.

It isnt.
 
bgomez89

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FWIW me and C9 talked about this hand:

[5:34:02 PM] Brandon Gomez: i wanted to bet to pick up the dead money and bluff
[5:34:29 PM] Brandon Gomez: then i realized there's not much to bluff against(unless regs call with some kind of QJ/KJ OOP)
[5:34:46 PM] Brandon Gomez: TT we bluff against obv
[5:35:14 PM] Brandon Gomez: pick up dead money from 22-77 but idk, after reading what stu said I sort of want to check back
[5:40:28 PM] C9H13NO3: Meht, its a wash
[5:40:38 PM] C9H13NO3: I check with TT, but cbetting is fine
[5:41:13 PM] C9H13NO3: I think I bet most of the time
[5:41:16 PM] Brandon Gomez: yea
[5:41:18 PM] Brandon Gomez: betting is fun
[5:41:24 PM] C9H13NO3: Wettish flop though
[5:41:54 PM] Brandon Gomez: eh, i dont think he has many draws since the A is out there
[5:41:59 PM] C9H13NO3: Like TT has more SD value, and more BD draws
[5:42:24 PM] C9H13NO3: Everything has a gutshot on that board
[5:43:03 PM] Brandon Gomez: i can only see him having KQ if anything for gutshots
[5:43:14 PM] Brandon Gomez: maybe 87 MAYBE
[5:43:19 PM] C9H13NO3: Its one of those "close, so it doesn't matter" spots IMO
 
vanquish

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I wish I wasn't on my phone but I'll subscribe to remind myself to get back to this.
 
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baudib1

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What worse calls?

What better folds?

His range is weighted towards pocket pairs and we beat most of them.

If he has a draw, you arent going to double barrel so he gets to see 2 cards anyway.

List the hands, that he folds, that you beat. (He dosent fold draws)

There are very few hands that he holds that arent draws that can suckout on us by spiking a high card.

If he holds a hand like KT (I dont think he calls but say he does) he has about 40% equity and his equity is far better than yours. The problem with betting 88 here is that even if its the best hand now (so it has mathematically more equity, its really hard to extract that equity. There are so many bad cards that you wont know if your hand is still good, yet KT on the same board he has a GS, probably a BD FD and if he hits a K or a T he has a pair so you wont get him to fold when he improves (and he won't fold now) yet if he bluffs its really hard to call a bet with 88 on a later street (and by hard I mean spewy.. i.e. it takes a lot of reads to actually assign a player with a range you can profit from if he calls)

I would double barrel.

Better hands that fold: TT, Jx

I'm not sure what your point about KT is. Folding out hands like KT/KQ that have good equity is a good thing. Whether this can be distinctly be classified as a bluff or value bet, because I know such things are important to you, is really irrelevant. It's getting someone to give up their equity share. Betting the flop also prevents him from bluffing the turn with those hands/protects us from getting bluffed with the best hand. Folding out other hands that have a single overcard and 25-30% equity is perfectly fine, too.
 
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baudib1

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Why not just tape the bet button down and eliminate the player too?

What your basically saying is that betting ATC is correct in almost any situation.

It isnt.

Betting flop, turn + river is probably correct against 85% of regs when our range is clearly superior/their range is capped.
 
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