This is a discussion on $10 NLHE 6-max: 4-bet po w/ JJ within the online poker forums, in the Cash Game Hand Analysis section; BU is 25/20 3b: 12
CO is a fishy player that Vs were 3-betting wide ip. We could flat here for that reason, but then we'd
This is already a very awkward spot with a 3-bet ahead of you, and as I understand it, even the best players in the world dont agree, how to handle the situation. Based on the player info I do lean toward cold calling the 3-bet though and not putting in a 4-bet. The reason is, you want the fishy player to come along with whatever, he has, and by just flatting you are much more likely to achieve that result. Giving the fish an easy way out and then getting called by the reg is the worst possible outcome, and you can take that option off the table by not 4-betting.
There is no way around the fact, that this spot is just super awkward, and I dont actually even know, what is the theoretically correct way to proceed. The issue is, the SPR is just so low, and ranges in 4-bet pots tend to be very narrow. I guess, you can still beat AQ, but that hand is not going to give you a lot of action, if you continue firing, and you lose to everything else, he can reasonably have. So while this might not be GTO poker, I would probably just look to check-fold already on the flop.
Position is really relevant in this hand, and you have the worst position for the whole hand. Because of that, I prefer a flat call of the 3 bet. It'll be more likely to keep the fishier player in the hand, which will also tend to make the 3 bettor play more straightforwardly vs 3 players, one of whom is bad.
This is obviously not the spot we want to get to Jacks in since we can get stuck pretty easily. I think there are 3 options with this hand. First is to just flat call and it is probably the option that I like best. It has the least variance (I would think, maybe thats wrong) of the 3 options and you can see a flop against a fishy player and another player who you think is raising a little a lighter side.
Second option is to 3 bet smaller as you did and then make a large bet size (based on the pot size anyway) to see if you can get a fold. I like this option the least since you allow your opponents to play perfectly against you. Its a little easier for them to 5 bet you now pre and if they do that I think you should fold and then also on the flop they fold when they dont have it and every time they call you are almost sure to be beat.
Third option is to 3 bet large pre and basically commit yourself to the pot in thinking that effective stack is 105BB and the initial raiser will likely fold. Here then you would play the hand where you would only be giving up if the flop is terrible like AKx or something like that and you would already have so many chips in the middle with the large pre flop raise that you could just jam the flop if you wanted to. This play will get more folds pre but you run into the same problem on the flop where better hands call and worse hands fold.
Tricky spot to be sure but you dont want to be in a spot where only better hands continue and worse hands always fold. If you can a fold from both pre that is good but if that doesnt happen then your 4 bet really boxes you in and just makes your opponents play better against you. NO action here is going to put you in a great spot but my personal opinion is calling here puts you in the least worst spot unless you think villains can lay a hand down then I would at least consider going for a large 4 bet pre.
It does not seem so terrible to call pre, since the opening was made by the CO. It is true that we have the worst position at the table, but when we 4-bet our range is perceived somewhat limited. It seems that we have a Ace of wheel, with which we look for folds of the last positions. If we call we can control the size of the pot and we will save more money when the board is not favorable for us. I don't blame you for the river fold, it seems like the fairest decision for that texture.
I very much like the 4bet in this spot. The CO can raise wide and BTN can have a lot of bluffs, so your JJ is way too good to just call (plus you'll cap your range, meaning if you don't raise your opponents know you can't have QQ+) AND by just calling you're inviting the CO player into the hand with good odds. Plus you're OOP so just calling means you're always in a shit spot post flop, vs likely 2 opponents with a capped range, a 4b could force them both out of the pot preflop, with hands that have good equity vs us KQ, ATs, AJ, AQ etc. Also with KK, AA they are likely to jam pre if you cold 4b, allowing us to get away from our hand much easier, whereas if we flat we could end up in a spot where the flop could be 267r and we are hardly ever folding, meaning we'll lose a lot more in the long run. One thing is, I would make the 4bet a little bit larger, seeing as you're OOP vs the 3 bettor, maybe 30-33bb.
Semi grunch. It is a CO open and a BTN raise where the whole table wants to ISO the CO so I can understand our want to 4B. But I think we need to be willing to stack off on one overcard boards with an unblocked flush draw (no ace on board) / Broadway draw texture here. I just don't think we find enough flopped sets and overpairs to win often enough with a single cbet against more solid Vs in position. Since we thought BTN was raising light and we put in the cold 4B and we unblock diamonds I like a turn jam as played. BTN as described shouldn't have AK or KK+ here much as I'd expect most of those combos to want to stack off pre. Stacking off post flop with KQ or a flush / combo draw here on the turn against an uncapped range puts him in a tough spot often. Once we x turn I'd fold unless you are willing to call the rest off on clean rivers. That may have been your plan and then the flush coming in induced the fold?
The other option is to flat the 3B and eval. I think you can call a cbet and eval turn if we take this line. Probably folding to the double barrel a lot on this run out in that case and folding a lot to the river jam if we make it that far.
I would try to use stats to help your reads as well. With a 3B this high I'd also be looking at his fold to 3B and fold to 4B stats. If they are sticky then he could be as light as QJss here. So we aren't always facing QQ+, AK against this type of V. If he had a lower 3B and a higher fold to 3B then there is still value in exploiting his overfolds to 3 and 4 bets pre but once called I like giving up on the turn way more often against this player type.