$10 NLHE 6-max: 3bet pot all middle cards, can I barrel with 99?

[CaptainKout]

Villain is on the tight side of tag(16/15 after 200 hands), opens up a bit on the btn, has folded to every three bet thus far. I don't really know what he calls with in position. So should I give up on this turn card?

SB: $9.95
BB Hero: $10.65
UTG: $0.64
MP: $9.95
CO: $10.27
BTN: $11.75

Pre-flop: ($0.15) Hero is BB and dealt
3 folds, BTN raises to $0.30, SB folds, Hero raises to $0.80, BTN calls $0.50

Flop: ($1.65) (2 players)
Hero bets $1.10, BTN calls $1.10

Turn: ($3.85) (2 players)
Hero bets $2.57, BTN calls $2.57

River: ($8.99) (2 players)
Hero bets $6.18 (All-in), BTN calls $6.18

 

[acky100]

3betting in the first place seems bad.

 

[JCgrind]

if he always folds to 3bs then 3bing 99 is bad.

other than that i think its wp, if he has some passive AKdd/AQdd its pretty sick

 

[c9h13no3]

NH.

There's arguments to be made for 3-betting or flatting, but I don't think its a big deal. 99 is an okay hand to 3-bet bluff with.

 

[bgomez89]

Damn this hand is sexy IMO

 

[acky100]

Damn this hand is horrible IMO

fyp

 

[acky100]

And i say that with no offence to OP.

why 3betting is bad:

-we can call 99 and show a profit right? Yes we can. Therefore 3betting 99 can only be for value (this is logical in poker, i.e. we can call AA profitably pre so 3betting can only be for value?? make sense??)
-So we should only 3bet 99 as a bluff if we cant call it profitably (which we obv can because its 99 and it is going to play super well)

Why we cant 3bet 99 for value vs a tight guy?

He is just going to fold all the worse hands we want to play against and call with a range that we're in worse shape against than the original range. 99 plays crap when he just calls IP with AJ+ and big PP's, compared to all his worse PP's, worse Ax, Kx etc etc...

To OP, pokerstove 99 vs what you think he calls a 3bet with...

Then pokerstove 99 vs his opening range on the button. Which one would you rather play vs?

 

[baudib1]

There's no reason to 3-bet here.

Postflop seems fine though.

 

[bgomez89]

I like 3bet bluffing because I don't think villain pays us off if we hit a set.

 

[acky100]

I like 3bet bluffing because I don't think villain pays us off if we hit a set.

This is why people tend to 3bet bluff hands like 22 and 33 here, because you can not call them profitably. 99 is way more playable for obvious reasons, so if you want to bluff with it, that means you cant call with it profitably?

 

[c9h13no3]

This is why people tend to 3bet bluff hands like 22 and 33 here, because you can not call them profitably. 99 is way more playable for obvious reasons, so if you want to bluff with it, that means you cant call with it profitably?

Essentially you're saying 99 has a ton of value since it can bluff catch when you make 2nd pair/a weak overpair. OOP, this isn't a big source of value.

 

[acky100]

Yep. Essentially im saying, from a common sense point of view, which is really logical and im sure you understand, if you can call a hand profitably then 3betting can not be as a bluff, only value. I mean, 99% of people are flatting here and rightly so, yeah you can 3bet for value if the guys loose and calling lots and lots of 3bets, but thats nowhere near close here so value 3betting is out the window. And you could 3bet as a bluff if the guy was opening 9% on the button and folding down to his 2% range, cause we can't flat profitably here again. That's all im trying to say. So i agree flatting 99 OOP isn't going to be our path to riches but it's a great hand to have in our flatting range (its pretty high up in our flatting range if we're 3betting JJ+) and is going to show more profit than using it as a bluff, and like usual, lets just use T8s or ATo or some other suited/high card crap we have tons of for bluffing purposes.

 

[OMGITSOVER9K]

Essentially you're saying 99 has a ton of value since it can bluff catch when you make 2nd pair/a weak overpair. OOP, this isn't a big source of value.

lol k, lets bluff against a range our hand does well against.

what do we get to fold that we aren't already beating?

sigh.

 

[bgomez89]

lol you think this guy pays off when we hit a set? GL trying to extract value OOP btw

 

[c9h13no3]

what do we get to fold that we aren't already beating?

equity preflop is really almost meaningless. Just like when you flop 2nd pair, you're likely ahead of their whole range. But 2nd pair is a long term loser once you get to showdown.

You realize you can make the same argument with 22 right? LOL WE HAVE 55% EQUITY AGAINST THEIR RANGE WITH 22!!!!! WHEN YOU TREEE BET, THEY'RE FOLDING HANDS WE ALREADY BEAT ZOMG!!

Stop thinking about your odds of winning at showdown preflop. Its meaningless. Focus on how the hand will play out on the flop, and which choice will put you in more profitable (typically this means easier) situations on the flop.

 

[OMGITSOVER9K]

just coz you can't play 99 OOP postflop doesn't mean other people can't.

how is 2nd pair a long term loser at SD vs a range of mostly air? since ranges are so weak preflop, most of the time the hands going to be pot controlled anyway so we get cheap showdowns.. and when we flop 2nd pair thats an overpair to his 2nd pair we get value (most likely 2 streets).

you keep 3betting good hands as a bluff and see how much profit you make.. next lets try 3betting KK to get AA to fold ey?!

lol, tard.. how do you even have so many posts?

 

[pierceisgod]

I agree with those who are thinks 3 betting is bad, if you 3 bet with nines it can get you into future trouble you should just try to flop a set because if you hit one and the button is in love with his hand you can trap him to death, also how deep he is determines 3 bets and how large.

 

[WVHillbilly]

just coz you can't play 99 OOP postflop doesn't mean other people can't.

how is 2nd pair a long term loser at SD vs a range of mostly air?

since ranges are so weak preflop, most of the time the hands going to be pot controlled anyway so we get cheap showdowns.

when we flop 2nd pair thats an overpair to his 2nd pair we get value (most likely 2 streets).

you keep 3betting good hands as a bluff and see how much profit you make.

next lets try 3betting KK to get AA to fold ey?!

lol, tard.. how do you even have so many posts?

Don't be a dick! He has more quality posts here than 99%. Would probably do you some good to go read them.

As for the hand it can certainly be played either way preflop here. 3betting is by no means terrible.

 

[OMGITSOVER9K]

pierce, don't try to flop sets vs BTN/LP opens.

they mostly have bad/weak hands so we don't get paid enough when we hit our set, which isn't often anyway.

our value comes from 99 standing up by itself as one pair (most of the time)

tip for the future.

edit: its a bit dicky, but come on.. if he posts like this everywhere else I think I'll leave it out.

WV, are you seriously 3 betting 99 against this villain ever?

folded to 100% of 3bets so far..

And i say that with no offence to OP.

why 3betting is bad:

-we can call 99 and show a profit right? Yes we can. Therefore 3betting 99 can only be for value (this is logical in poker, i.e. we can call AA profitably pre so 3betting can only be for value?? make sense??)
-So we should only 3bet 99 as a bluff if we cant call it profitably (which we obv can because its 99 and it is going to play super well)

Why we cant 3bet 99 for value vs a tight guy?

He is just going to fold all the worse hands we want to play against and call with a range that we're in worse shape against than the original range. 99 plays crap when he just calls IP with AJ+ and big PP's, compared to all his worse PP's, worse Ax, Kx etc etc...

To OP, pokerstove 99 vs what you think he calls a 3bet with...

Then pokerstove 99 vs his opening range on the button. Which one would you rather play vs?

/thread

 

[bgomez89]

just coz you can't play 99 OOP postflop doesn't mean other people can't.

how is 2nd pair a long term loser at SD vs a range of mostly air? since ranges are so weak preflop, most of the time the hands going to be pot controlled anyway so we get cheap showdowns.. and when we flop 2nd pair thats an overpair to his 2nd pair we get value (most likely 2 streets).

you keep 3betting good hands as a bluff and see how much profit you make.. next lets try 3betting KK to get AA to fold ey?!

lol, tard.. how do you even have so many posts?

This is cute.

 

[WVHillbilly]

WV, are you seriously 3 betting 99 against this villain ever?

folded to 100% of 3bets so far..

We're not going to make a ton of $$s playing 99 OOP against a preflop raiser (even if he's opening wide on the BTN). Yeah we'll occasionally get 2 streets when he makes some smaller pair but we'll just as often end up paying some slightly better pair off for 2 streets. He'll have a ton of overcards in his range here (say he opens 30%) and he's probably likely to check back quite a few flops if we flat pre. Even worse he'll be betting the flops we can't really call but he'll be checking back the flops that are good for us fairly often so no guarantees that we even pick up a cbet and he sees 2 cards with lots of chances to make a better pair.

 

[c9h13no3]

just coz you can't play 99 OOP postflop doesn't mean other people can't.

how is 2nd pair a long term loser at SD vs a range of mostly air?

Because air isn't going to put much $ in the pot. 2nd pair is a hand giving off huge implied odds.

But maybe I shouldn't try to explain things to people who insult me?

 

[JCgrind]

Half the reason you can make money flatting 99 is because most players will put two barrels in here IP. unless the flops absolutely terrible you'll always get at least one?

 

[acky100]

Yes jc, we will always get one. Thread is totally laughable to be honest, 99 is such a good hand to have in our calling range, zomg wont hit set gotta turn it into a bluff. good game CC

 

[OMGITSOVER9K]

thats not the point.. we don't need to stack everytime we see a flop.

its about which option is more +ev, which is flatting due to the reasons given before.

but whatever, I give up.. keep 3betting 99 in those spots.