$1/$2 PLHE Full Ring: QQ getting value and then shoving. Was it right?

[brunochano]

Hi guys this hand was played in a live pot limit cash game could you please help me?

The table was too loose and the guys were limping/ raising a wide range.


I had QQ and a stack of about $100 at the sb and raised for the limit $15 ( was this a 3bet?)after almost the whole table( 8 players) limped and then got 4 calls ( bb utg utg1 and button/ mp/hj and co folds).

The flop came Js8c6c
The pot was about $75 and I lead $25 expecting to get some value BB folds UTG calls and UTG1 calls BT fold BB fold.

The turn came a 4s and I shoved my $60 into a $150pot. The 2 villains calls and the river comes a 2s both then check and utg wins a pot of $320 with the nut flush draw (AsTs) utg1 shows Ks8s.

Maybe it's simple for you that have more experience but as a beginner I wonder if I played correctly. I came back home sad because I have a small bankroll and this money was important for me but I think it's worth the learning process. My doubts are:

With a stack of only $100 was I right to try to extract value raising pre flop and leading in a flop like this?

My bet on the flop didn't let good odds for the villain to call my shove on turn? (Are these calculations correct? 1:3,5 for villain 1 to call with his flush draw? thats about 22,5% so I ask my self haven't I made their lives easy? Am I right to think this 4,5% edge as a +EV shove in the long term? Could I consider this small edge as better having a line of checking? Could I have betted smaller on flop in order to shove turn offering worst odds ?( I think this would be important in such a loose table and even more against 2 deep stacks loose players but should the thought about extracting value and denying equity have a different hole from one street to another or should I just think about how to fit my shove?)

Even though having a small stack compared to the villains ( 2,5x my stack) I think that this bet was kind of close to the maximum they would pay for my turn shove but just to have a better notion if I had a deeper stack (Should I have had in order to play with then?) what would be the worst odds I could try to offer? Maybe 1:3 in a bet of half pot? Or should I try to bet 60% of the pot or more(I mean on turn specifically)?

Is there any predominant thinking in this kind of turn with lots of flush draws? Denying equity ( trying to push the bet a little bit harder and decreasing the number of call or betting smaller kind of how I did and getting two villains in the hand) or Gain value (kind of like I did?)?

Just one curiosity if the villain have a flush draw he is in a 9: 35(decreases our 2 cards as whel as his 9 flush cards + the 4 board cards?/ why don't we count the other players cards in this decrease?) or about 1:4 to hit his flush? So in these terms our odds of 1:3,5 we re offering arent such a big deal right? How much should be these difference in order to profit and also deny equity in such situations like these?



Guys I hope so many questions may not be a problem to you all I want is to be sure I understand everything behind this play and if I made any mistake that I never make it again hahhaha!

Thanks a lot!

 

[eetenor]

Hi guys this hand was played in a live pot limit cash game could you please help me?

The table was too loose and the guys were limping/ raising a wide range.


I had QQ and a stack of about $100 at the sb and raised for the limit $15 ( was this a 3bet?)after almost the whole table( 8 players) limped and then got 4 calls ( bb utg utg1 and button/ mp/hj and co folds).

The flop came Js8c6c
The pot was about $75 and I lead $25 expecting to get some value BB folds UTG calls and UTG1 calls BT fold BB fold.

The turn came a 4s and I shoved my $60 into a $150pot. The 2 villains calls and the river comes a 2s both then check and utg wins a pot of $320 with the nut flush draw (AsTs) utg1 shows Ks8s.

Maybe it's simple for you that have more experience but as a beginner I wonder if I played correctly. I came back home sad because I have a small bankroll and this money was important for me but I think it's worth the learning process. My doubts are:

With a stack of only $100 was I right to try to extract value raising pre flop and leading in a flop like this?

My bet on the flop didn't let good odds for the villain to call my shove on turn? (Are these calculations correct? 1:3,5 for villain 1 to call with his flush draw? thats about 22,5% so I ask my self haven't I made their lives easy? Am I right to think this 4,5% edge as a +EV shove in the long term? Could I consider this small edge as better having a line of checking? Could I have betted smaller on flop in order to shove turn offering worst odds ?( I think this would be important in such a loose table and even more against 2 deep stacks loose players but should the thought about extracting value and denying equity have a different hole from one street to another or should I just think about how to fit my shove?)

Thanks a lot!

Thank you for posting.

In a game where V are not folding draws the math does not matter to them. That means we do not take actions that rely on the math. Such was your play on the flop in a game with very low fold rates we go big with all but our nutted hands. So we can bet pot on the flop giving the V's the worst possible odds on their draws with our stack size.

Also you said the money was important to you so picking up the pot on the flop is a huge win for us more important than equity realizing with 1 pair. When we win on the flop we will have $160 in our stack so we can put even more pressure on our V in future hands.

Hope this helps

 

[Hermus]

I have no experience in pot limit games so I don't have a comment on your hand. I came here to say you should only play within your bankroll. Your mental game and decision making with thank you for it.

 

[SpanRmonka]

I don't play much pot limit either, but I'd def say a bigger raise on the flop is required. Especially with loose passive players at the table.

The way I'm looking at it is, I had $100, if I win the pot on the flop then I'm very happy with adding 50% to my stack without giving villains chance to out draw my PP.

So I'm also betting the pot here, if it was a no limit game/tourney, possibly even more, if I thought the players might come over the top!

If the $100 is a lot of money for you, maybe just play online more, for practice, post in the community to qualify for the freerolls and league, I've improved so much over the last year of being here!

 

[Rahatis]

Maybe play higher stakes next time or not.

 

[brunochano]

Maybe play higher stakes next time or not.

Sorry bro but I didn't got it. You mean I should play with more money? Or more expensive? Excuse me but I didn't got the point.

 

[brunochano]

Thanks a lot for the answers guys.

I'm so passionate to this game that answers put me a smile on my face! hahaha.

Please if you are reading these topic and have more answers to any of the topics I posted I would appreciate any help especially about the odds stuff, is everybody in agree with that? As long as you said I got that I should have betted pot at the flop and avoided problems thanks a lot.

The thing is in such a loose game like this I was having trouble to play with them and thought this QQ was my biggest chance to have some money hahaha.

A half pot bet at flop would still be an option? or Maybe 50 60% would it be too wrong? I don't know why but the idea of extracting value seens nice to me it's difficult to think about betting pot because I see it as a clear fold to them. But I got the point and I'm going to consider it next time.

 

[brunochano]

haha.

A half pot bet at flop would still be an option? or Maybe 50 60% would it be too wrong? I don't know why but the idea of extracting value seens nice to me it's difficult to think about betting pot because I see it as a clear fold to them. But I got the point and I'm going to consider it next time.

I was re reading the answers and now I finally understand your point we bet pot and its done but I still have the doubt if half or a litle more would be ok and plus EV in the long term... I don't know if I made it clear but what about an equilibrium in denying equity and gain value? wouldn't it be a smarter decision in the long term considering that when we are winning we have asked our price to the villain equity realization? I got the point that when we are betting pot we are trying to be safer about our small pot gain but what would be the EV difference in betting less or more? Could anyone please help me with this doubt? I think this is something that can help me to think similar spots...

 

[Rahatis]

Sorry bro but I didn't got it. You mean I should play with more money? Or more expensive? Excuse me but I didn't got the point.

The higher you play the sooner you will be rich. Or become a Freeroll Pro like most nits (great players) here.
Good luck!

 

[eetenor]

I was re reading the answers and now I finally understand your point we bet pot and its done but I still have the doubt if half or a litle more would be ok and plus EV in the long term... I don't know if I made it clear but what about an equilibrium in denying equity and gain value? wouldn't it be a smarter decision in the long term considering that when we are winning we have asked our price to the villain equity realization? I got the point that when we are betting pot we are trying to be safer about our small pot gain but what would be the EV difference in betting less or more? Could anyone please help me with this doubt? I think this is something that can help me to think similar spots...

Thank you for posting.

The advice to bet pot is given based on your bankroll statement. When playing poker bankroll considerations are #1. Without a bankroll we cannot play and win therefore we cannot realize long term equity in our hands because we cannot play enough hands if we have a losing streak.

Secondly in games where V do not care about equity we play exploit poker so we bet as big as we can if they are going to call anyway. There is no reason to assume this player type was going to over fold.

In this case betting pot would mean #1 protecting our bankroll #2 denying equity #3 winning more when we win.

It is good that you are thinking about equities I will look at your math again and see if it is correct but it is secondary in these types of games to the bankroll considerations.

Hope this helps

 

[eetenor]

Hi guys this hand was played in a live pot limit cash game could you please help me?

The table was too loose and the guys were limping/ raising a wide range.


I had QQ and a stack of about $100 at the sb and raised for the limit $15 ( was this a 3bet?)after almost the whole table( 8 players) limped and then got 4 calls ( bb utg utg1 and button/ mp/hj and co folds).

The flop came Js8c6c
The pot was about $75 and I lead $25 expecting to get some value BB folds UTG calls and UTG1 calls BT fold BB fold.

The turn came a 4s and I shoved my $60 into a $150pot. The 2 villains calls and the river comes a 2s both then check and utg wins a pot of $320 with the nut flush draw (AsTs) utg1 shows Ks8s.

Maybe it's simple for you that have more experience but as a beginner I wonder if I played correctly. I came back home sad because I have a small bankroll and this money was important for me but I think it's worth the learning process. My doubts are:

With a stack of only $100 was I right to try to extract value raising pre flop and leading in a flop like this?

My bet on the flop didn't let good odds for the villain to call my shove on turn? (Are these calculations correct? 1:3,5 for villain 1 to call with his flush draw? thats about 22,5% so I ask my self haven't I made their lives easy? Am I right to think this 4,5% edge as a +EV shove in the long term? Could I consider this small edge as better having a line of checking? Could I have betted smaller on flop in order to shove turn offering worst odds ?( I think this would be important in such a loose table and even more against 2 deep stacks loose players but should the thought about extracting value and denying equity have a different hole from one street to another or should I just think about how to fit my shove?)

Even though having a small stack compared to the villains ( 2,5x my stack) I think that this bet was kind of close to the maximum they would pay for my turn shove but just to have a better notion if I had a deeper stack (Should I have had in order to play with then?) what would be the worst odds I could try to offer? Maybe 1:3 in a bet of half pot? Or should I try to bet 60% of the pot or more(I mean on turn specifically)?

Is there any predominant thinking in this kind of turn with lots of flush draws? Denying equity ( trying to push the bet a little bit harder and decreasing the number of call or betting smaller kind of how I did and getting two villains in the hand) or Gain value (kind of like I did?)?

Just one curiosity if the villain have a flush draw he is in a 9: 35(decreases our 2 cards as whel as his 9 flush cards + the 4 board cards?/ why don't we count the other players cards in this decrease?) or about 1:4 to hit his flush? So in these terms our odds of 1:3,5 we re offering arent such a big deal right? How much should be these difference in order to profit and also deny equity in such situations like these?



Guys I hope so many questions may not be a problem to you all I want is to be sure I understand everything behind this play and if I made any mistake that I never make it again hahhaha!

Thanks a lot!

Thank you for posting

As I posted further down in the thread here is my evaluation of the equities.


CC gives the V 19.49% equity on the flop if it was head-up.

I then used equilab and this is the equity read out for all 3 players.


Board: Js8c6c
Equity Win Tie
MP3 17.17% 17.17% 0.00% { AsTs }
CO 21.04% 21.04% 0.00% { Ks8s }
SB 61.79% 61.79% 0.00% { QdQs }

Hero bets 25 pot 100 V1 calls 25 to win 125 =20% yes an error but if V2 calls V1 = 16.66% it becomes a correct call for V1 and V2
When choosing small bet sizing we have to anticipate this occurring for our equity sizing strategies to be +EV


Here are equities on the turn.

Board: Js8c6c4s
Equity Win Tie
MP3 21.43% 21.43% 0.00% { AsTs }
CO 11.90% 11.90% 0.00% { Ks8s }
SB 66.67% 66.67% 0.00% { QdQs }

without the Qs in your hand


Board: Js8c6c4s
Equity Win Tie
MP3 23.81% 23.81% 0.00% { AsTs }
CO 11.90% 11.90% 0.00% { Ks8s }
SB 64.29% 64.29% 0.00% { QdQh }


V1 needs 270/60= 22.22% directly and only 18.18% when V2 calls. Call is correct on turn.

If V1 makes their flush and gets stacks on the river from the 3rd V their full potential implied odds on the turn call are 430/60=7.17-1=13.94% Assuming V2 had only 100 left.

As we see here the V1 made no mistakes on the turn so as many of us have stated a pot size bet on the flop if called is a far better long term +EV play than shoving turn when our V pick up more equity. Combine that with our need for bankroll protection and V's willingness to call, the pot on the flop play is the play to make.

Hope this helps

 

[brunochano]

Thank you for posting.

The advice to bet pot is given based on your bankroll statement. When playing poker bankroll considerations are #1. Without a bankroll we cannot play and win therefore we cannot realize long term equity in our hands because we cannot play enough hands if we have a losing streak.

Secondly in games where V do not care about equity we play exploit poker so we bet as big as we can if they are going to call anyway. There is no reason to assume this player type was going to over fold.

Now I'm finally getting it but I have one curiosity.

Assuming that our villain wouldn't call a pot sized bet and that we had no issues in our bankroll wouldn't be better betting something like 75% of the pot and requiring him to have 30% on this call so his call would be be a mistake but the probability of he calling would be higher then we are not denying so much equity( disconsidering the bankroll issue) but having more value on our play. Is it right to think like this?

I'm still asking because even not having the right bankroll I'm totally commited to learning how to play poker and I'm pretty sure I'm going to play it for a long long time and I just want to be sure what is the best long term move because the idea of betting pot seems akward to me because I'm assuming that he would fold. And didn't said but I'm totally okay about going back home earlier if things don't go well as long as I make the +EV move but as I said bellow I wouldn't have enough experience to play other hands.

Just to be clear what I said about bankroll was something that was occuring at that exactly moment and I got that I should play more exploitative but what if things weren't like this? Because I'm always having more money to play other games other times so in this case would'nt be getting the call for a wrong price a better move? I'm wondering if looking for his call I'm getting the most value from this hand and even making my life easier playing then other spots where I cannot have so much value and even knowledge about how to play.

 

[eetenor]

Now I'm finally getting it but I have one curiosity.

Assuming that our villain wouldn't call a pot sized bet and that we had no issues in our bankroll wouldn't be better betting something like 75% of the pot and requiring him to have 30% on this call so his call would be be a mistake but the probability of he calling would be higher then we are not denying so much equity( disconsidering the bankroll issue) but having more value on our play. Is it right to think like this?

I'm still asking because even not having the right bankroll I'm totally commited to learning how to play poker and I'm pretty sure I'm going to play it for a long long time and I just want to be sure what is the best long term move because the idea of betting pot seems akward to me because I'm assuming that he would fold. And didn't said but I'm totally okay about going back home earlier if things don't go well as long as I make the +EV move but as I said bellow I wouldn't have enough experience to play other hands.

Just to be clear what I said about bankroll was something that was occuring at that exactly moment and I got that I should play more exploitative but what if things weren't like this? Because I'm always having more money to play other games other times so in this case would'nt be getting the call for a wrong price a better move? I'm wondering if looking for his call I'm getting the most value from this hand and even making my life easier playing then other spots where I cannot have so much value and even knowledge about how to play.

Thank you for responding.

Our goal is to always get as much as we can from our Villains so you are right the largest bet we can make without getting too many folds based on equity is the best choice.

What you want to consider here is the fact that in a 3 way pot OOP we need to bet bigger because of the odds V2 gets when they over call. We then estimate if there is a folding frequency difference between say a $50 bet or pot bet? If not or just slightly less folding then we always bet pot.

It is very good that you are learning about equities and are diving deep into a spot like this.

An important factor for you is this. Your V are not skilled players as demonstrated by their river actions. Therefore raw equity strategies are not our best tool for extracting money from this player type. Exploit poker not GTO has the highest ROI in these types of games. Exploit poker strategy uses over betting and pot control versus this player type.

Hope this helps

 

[brunochano]

Now I finally got it!

Thanks a lot!

See ya!

 

[SpanRmonka]

This was a really interesting thread. I struggle with the in depth maths in poker, and often use my intuition rather than pure figures. But its great to see how something which for me is based on experience, can also be calculated and proven to a degree.

I would suggest you check out Blackrain79 if you haven't already. He has lots of videos etc that are very relevant to this type of spot. What you are up against here is essentially microstakes players. His advice in a nutshell is bet way bigger than normal as they will still call a high percentage of times, therefore making this a long term +EV move. When they fold it is less likely to be based on your bet size and more likely based on their own cards!

Thanks for all the posts and chat here, it was really helpful and informative.