thanks for your comment
This ^ is 100% wrong.
Have a look at what you've written... KK crushes everything but AA
Hello there Poker Orifice, good that you have said that because this is exactly the point the are trying to figure out here:
A) Are we really playing AA x KK, KK x QQ, QQ x TT?
Or....
B) We are playing Range x Range ideia, where there is no such thing as KK crushes everything but AA, because Poker is a game of incomplete information. You know you have the second better hand Preflop and that Pocket Kings, indeed, crushes 99% Range, PREFLOP!
The reality of the game is arid and hard, and many times KK would not sustain pressure versus a Whale which have decided to Limp A2 off-suited from the EP. You are Hero in the BTN with KK, which is the better position for this hand. It comes to you a limp from MP from a Whale with 82 BB Effective Stack.
CO, folds, you raise to whatever size you believe it is better for the situation, let's us imagine 4x, SB folds, BB, folds, and only the Whale in the EP calls and now you are Heads-up. The Flop comes:
3d9cAs
Whale in the EP checks and you bet 2/3 Pot, 1/2 Pot, 3/3 Pot, 1/3 Pot and let us suppose before this example gets too abstract:
A) You bet 1/3 Pot because when you Raise from the Button you will have better Aces, and as long as you have KK as your cards, you are simply blocking 50% Combos of AK, which is very good right? Nope, because maybe the Whale in the EP, is not thinking AT ALL about all of this. And if you C-Bet 1/3 Pot he will certainly call with worst aces, such as A2, A6, A7, A8, A9 and AT.
B) You bet 1/2 Pot because you know the guy is a Whale and will continue with a wide range and then the Whale of the EP calls. He calls you with any ace, any pair, any draw.
C) You bet something between 2/3, 3/4 Pot and the Whale in the MP still CALLS! With the same range that he calls 1/3, 1/2 and 3/4! The guy is not thinking about anything!!!! He is just looking at his hole cards as making decisions based on that.
If you try to Bluff Turn/River you will get a Showdown to see that indeed, the guy had any Ace, Any Draw, Any Gutter and decided to go. How profitable that could be?
Once again, we are specifically talking about 2 NL and 5 NL where that we know, for experience playing for over a year, with a huge sample of hands that went All-in Preflop at these Stakes are mostly:
AA, AKo, AKs, AQs, AJs, ATs, A5s-A2s and in some Loose Aggressive ones you will find AQo, AJo, ATo, all the Suited Aces etc.
I don't intend to be very boring about, I believe it is a matter of choice.
If you decide to go with KK in a All-in Preflop, both Deep Stacked you will have 60%
equity versus this range of Aces. It is not so bad. However Experience showed something that is not quietly that:
My experience, and other players are right do disagree because it is only my experience at 2 NL more than 5 NL, that when ANY kind of Player put a shove upon your head you will mostly, greatly, absurdly find this insane Range:
AA, AKs (only)
And KK will not Flip in a situation like that, which is not a situation where you have 60% Equity versus 40% of the Range of your Shoving-Villain. (KK will have nearly 30% equity versus a 5bet/Range which includes only AA and AKs)
At 2NL 5bet/Shove represent almost 90% of times AA or AKs, if it comes from a TAG or a NIT be certain of that.
The other Scenario is also harsh for me: How many times did I went All-in Preflop in a 6-MAX Cash Table and got boned by AQo, AJ0, A5s, and sometimes I wonder if this "Standard" and "Default" plays that we learn in courses in books, should not be rethought and readjust to the common population reality.
I have a feeling that it starts to be profitable to put a Shove or Call a Preflop shove with KK, QQ, JJ or even TT, from the 25 NL or above.
There is no right in wrong in Poker, but there are knowledge of the field and which actions are profitable in the Long Run and which actions are not profitable in the Long Run. Default and Standard moves doesn't work very well at 2 NL, mostly. We gotta be creative, but we also gotta be ABC Poker many times. Or else...
I decided to remove KK, QQ, JJ, TT from my range of shoving at 2 NL. Because it is simply not profitable now. If I see in the future that I can really be putting a 5bet with QQ or less, I would certainly do it. Again, I am not playing KK, QQ or AA: I am playing my 4bet range of the Button versus a 3bet Range from the BB, as an example, and in my 4bet range there are indeed a couple of Pocket Kings, but in my 5Bet range there are none. I would rather go Pushing with A2s in Position versus a weak player, than calling a 5bet/All-in with KK, 100 Big Blinds deep both Villain and Hero.
Regards;
Carlos 'Aballinamion' Barbosa
PS: Sometimes people start to be too much creative and add hands in a 5bet/Shove Range that doesn't really exist. I said that because my 5/bet/Shove Range includes only AA and AKs for VALUE. For Bluff I include AKo, AQs and sometimes, almost never, ever I put in my 5bet Range a AJs, ATs, A5s-A2s, when I played a decent amount of hands versus a Villain and I am certain he is very wide in his 4-bet Range, then I can put up a semi-bluff with AJs, or A3s that will hit the board decently versus hands that should not be at all at a 5bet Range for Value, hands such as KK, QQ, JJ, TT, 99...
Once again, there is no right and wrong. We gotta analyse a particular complex and unique scenario and bring up the best decision making. Thanks a lot, have a nice day.