How can you prove you are not being cheated in online poker?

#1 July 19th, 2020, 7:00 PM

Can you really truly ever know? Couldn't they just write the program so their buddies win all the big hands?

#2 July 19th, 2020, 7:02 PM

You can track hand histories and find anomalies.

#3 July 19th, 2020, 7:05 PM

Originally Posted by RiverRick

Can you really truly ever know? Couldn't they just write the program so their buddies win all the big hands?

I don't think you can ever truly know. That's why I just play small stakes and freerolls online for entertainment and experience. There's just way too much information out there about the cheating to ignore.
I caught a guy palming chips from my pot in a real life game recently too. Cheaters are everywhere, and I think it's much easier to cheat online.

#4 July 19th, 2020, 7:47 PM

Originally Posted by perrypip

You can track hand histories and find anomalies.

And then they will just deny it. You can't win.

#5 July 19th, 2020, 7:49 PM

Originally Posted by DizzyDeb717

I don't think you can ever truly know. That's why I just play small stakes and freerolls online for entertainment and experience. There's just way too much information out there about the cheating to ignore.
I caught a guy palming chips from my pot in a real life game recently too. Cheaters are everywhere, and I think it's much easier to cheat online.

I agree. Free rolls online. I'll never deposit money on any of these sites so their friends can win it off me.

#6 July 19th, 2020, 7:56 PM

Maybe some truth in it. Pokerstars got very shirty with me when I asked them why no matter what game I was playing, I always started as the BB or SB? The woman almost went off on one and said, all our games are very honest and keep up the highest integrity etc...
I told her, I wasn't accusing pokerstars of anything! just wanted to know the positioning of the blinds. After she calmed down, she said the seating is chosen at random.
Since then, my seating position isn't always on the blinds.....hmmmm

#7 July 20th, 2020, 3:14 AM

Originally Posted by RiverRick

Can you really truly ever know? Couldn't they just write the program so their buddies win all the big hands?

Agree with DizzyDeb717 - you can never truly know.

I take it for granted Random Number Generators have issues as they do not replicate true randomness. Beyond that from the minute I first watched any poker hands on line I thought everything looked suspect compared to live poker.

So I play on line (have no choice), am conservative and 'winning' if you will, but absolutely limit any exposure. As Deb noted, poker is rife with cheating which simply mirrors life in a broader sense.

I am fairly philosophical about it all and I do not quite go full conspiracy in that individuals are targeted personally. However, what I sense is players are profiled and then placed in streams- that when the cards hit the tables (for numerous reasons) one will find winning and losing seats.

A member called Deuce Parade recently contributed to a thread with a great post pointing out the EA Sports (FIFA Soccer) now track players ability and then 'level the playing field' so weaker players stay engaged on line....and of course EA Sports increases their bottom line in the process. Further to this they keep building your profile from successive visits. He then posed the question if they had the computing power to do this why would others not take advantage?

I agree and as I have said before if we actually knew how easy it was to weight card distribution in a subtle, virtually untraceable manner we would be shocked.

So I'll finish with with this. We have all played on line a million and one times to see a 'big stack' gain momentum. Day in and out this happens - strikingly obvious in MTTs. If Random Number Generation was truly random, how could any individual player enjoy momentum for an extended period?

Yet we witness players with miraculous momentum tourney in tourney out.

#8 July 20th, 2020, 9:55 AM

You can never truly know 100% but we have incredible poker tracking tools available these days where massive statistical anomalies would quickly be found.

I have run millions of my own hands in these programs in the past and was unable to find any proof of widespread statistical anomalies on any of the most popular sites in particular.

But most people do not truly understand just how long the long run really is in poker (i.e. it takes hundreds of thousands of hands just to get past basic variance in this game) so this "debate" will likely never end.

This is actually the #1 question people ask me about so I have written an entire article about it as well:

https://www.blackrain79.com/2018/11/...er-rigged.html

#9 July 20th, 2020, 10:18 AM

No way to prove they deceive us or not

#10 July 20th, 2020, 1:51 PM

Even if they cheat in some way, we will never know.Those players who lose they always think that they are being cheated.10 percent of players win, another 90 percent lose.So the choice is yours whether to play or not!

#11 July 20th, 2020, 2:13 PM

A friend of mine told me that he stopped playing online when he had quads beaten by quads. This is obviously very unlikely and of course unlucky to be on the losing side, but I looked it up and on pokerstars alone it should happen a handful of times every day.

So even an extreme example of an individual hand like this can prove nothing - it requires (at least) millions of hands to see that something is wrong.

#12 July 20th, 2020, 2:20 PM

look i don't really know how to do this anymore because many times i felt lezado by the site.

#13 July 20th, 2020, 8:32 PM

If video game companies are going to great lengths to even the playing field between competitors, you can bet your bottom dollar that online poker sites do the same thing. Video game companies massively increase their bottom dollar by doing so (Don't be naive, people. That is literally the only objective of a business after all!), and online poker rooms stand to make billions more than video game companies do.

Players of the video games for years were going on to forums saying that things didn't feel right and that they swore that the games were artificially scripted (just like online poker players How can you prove you are not being cheated in online poker?

How can you prove you are not being cheated in online poker?

). Just like lots of online poker players, they were ridiculed and told they were just "losing players who were whining".

Then someone found the EA Sports DDA Patent, which stands for "Dynamic Difficulty Adjustment". Here is an excerpt from that patent:
[0028]
Another solution that may be used in some types of competitive video games, such as racing games, is to vary the ability of the user or the user's competitor based on the relationship between the user and the user's competitor. For example, supposing that the video game is a racing game, the user's car may be made faster when the user is doing poorly and may be made slower when the user is doing well. This solution may result in what is sometimes referred to as a “rubber band effect.”

Page after page of this patent goes on to explain how when players connect to their online network, that they are connecting to a server that is constantly rating their skill level based on hundreds of factors, much like an ELO rating in chess. It will then subtly and artificially level the playing field between the two players so that the worse player doesn't become frustrated and quit. The patent even goes into detail about how to keep the players from ever knowing this is going on.

Keep in mind, that it doesn't mean that it is keeping the better player from winning. However, let's say that if the 2 players were to play 100 games and the better player would have won 80 times and lost 20 times, maybe now its more of a 60/40.

If lower-skilled players get frustrated and quit, they won't be around to purchase "Ultimate Team Packs", which are basically forms of gambling in which you get a random group of "cards" or players to put onto your team. A lot less money for them.

Well, if lesser skilled poker players get frustrated (or broke), they won't be around to generate rake for the poker sites. What makes them more money: A pool of 10,000 players of all skill levels, or a pool of 1000 sharks that play a lot less hands and don't go to the river as much? I think the answer is obvious. Now, just like the DDA Patent outlined above, this doesn't mean the better players won't still win over the long run, it just means that the long-run will be a lot longer. Again, will the site make more money if the better players win the money in 10,000 hands, or in 100,000 hands? Also once again, that answer is obvious.

I have been a live poker dealer and floor-man in Las Vegas for almost 20 years now. I have also been playing online poker since the "Paradise Poker" days. I can prove that I am a long-term winning player. And I'll be the first one to tell you that if you think there isn't some tinkering going on in online poker, you're naive and/or your ego is getting the best of you.

#14 July 20th, 2020, 10:39 PM

I don't think there's a way to be sure. Maybe you can try to calculculate if the poker room get profit from tournaments or constantly pay overlay. All in all nobody do this for free.

#15 July 21st, 2020, 3:11 PM

I do what I think most players do. I stick with a reputable platform like Pokerstars and assume they won't fiddle with their algorithms because being caught would cost them millions of dollars and perhaps their business entirely. I played for years and have seen all kinds of so called "patterns" that some could assume were suspicious. But, over time, I saw things somewhat equalled out. So, I don't think the companies are cheating. There may be players colluding using chat software but I stick to tournaments where getting on the same table is beyond their control.

#16 July 21st, 2020, 3:24 PM

Originally Posted by DeuceParade

If video game companies are going to great lengths to even the playing field between competitors, you can bet your bottom dollar that online poker sites do the same thing. Video game companies massively increase their bottom dollar by doing so (Don't be naive, people. That is literally the only objective of a business after all!), and online poker rooms stand to make billions more than video game companies do.

Players of the video games for years were going on to forums saying that things didn't feel right and that they swore that the games were artificially scripted (just like online poker players How can you prove you are not being cheated in online poker?

). Just like lots of online poker players, they were ridiculed and told they were just "losing players who were whining".

Then someone found the EA Sports DDA Patent, which stands for "Dynamic Difficulty Adjustment". Here is an excerpt from that patent:
[0028]
Another solution that may be used in some types of competitive video games, such as racing games, is to vary the ability of the user or the user's competitor based on the relationship between the user and the user's competitor. For example, supposing that the video game is a racing game, the user's car may be made faster when the user is doing poorly and may be made slower when the user is doing well. This solution may result in what is sometimes referred to as a �rubber band effect.�

Page after page of this patent goes on to explain how when players connect to their online network, that they are connecting to a server that is constantly rating their skill level based on hundreds of factors, much like an ELO rating in chess. It will then subtly and artificially level the playing field between the two players so that the worse player doesn't become frustrated and quit. The patent even goes into detail about how to keep the players from ever knowing this is going on.

Keep in mind, that it doesn't mean that it is keeping the better player from winning. However, let's say that if the 2 players were to play 100 games and the better player would have won 80 times and lost 20 times, maybe now its more of a 60/40.

If lower-skilled players get frustrated and quit, they won't be around to purchase "Ultimate Team Packs", which are basically forms of gambling in which you get a random group of "cards" or players to put onto your team. A lot less money for them.

Well, if lesser skilled poker players get frustrated (or broke), they won't be around to generate rake for the poker sites. What makes them more money: A pool of 10,000 players of all skill levels, or a pool of 1000 sharks that play a lot less hands and don't go to the river as much? I think the answer is obvious. Now, just like the DDA Patent outlined above, this doesn't mean the better players won't still win over the long run, it just means that the long-run will be a lot longer. Again, will the site make more money if the better players win the money in 10,000 hands, or in 100,000 hands? Also once again, that answer is obvious.

I have been a live poker dealer and floor-man in Las Vegas for almost 20 years now. I have also been playing online poker since the "Paradise Poker" days. I can prove that I am a long-term winning player. And I'll be the first one to tell you that if you think there isn't some tinkering going on in online poker, you're naive and/or your ego is getting the best of you.

Dude,,do you know how many times ive have read this exact statement,,,we get it,,,, How can you prove you are not being cheated in online poker?

There is a difference between knowing how to "play" poker,,,,and a way to "win" at poker,,,you havn't figured it out yet,,,get it? How can you prove you are not being cheated in online poker?

#17 July 21st, 2020, 8:58 PM

Originally Posted by terryk

Dude,,do you know how many times ive have read this exact statement,,,we get it,,,, How can you prove you are not being cheated in online poker?

There is a difference between knowing how to "play" poker,,,,and a way to "win" at poker,,,you havn't figured it out yet,,,get it? How can you prove you are not being cheated in online poker?

I've tried deciphering this several times now and I can't figuring out what you are trying to say here.

#18 July 21st, 2020, 10:03 PM

Originally Posted by terryk

Dude,,do you know how many times ive have read this exact statement,,,we get it,,,, How can you prove you are not being cheated in online poker?

There is a difference between knowing how to "play" poker,,,,and a way to "win" at poker,,,you havn't figured it out yet,,,get it? How can you prove you are not being cheated in online poker?

Sweet graph, terryk. Glad you have it "figured out" How can you prove you are not being cheated in online poker?

https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/i/DeuceParade/terryk.png?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds

#19 July 21st, 2020, 10:38 PM

Cheaters are all over the place butt playing with bots are just knot rite.

#20 July 22nd, 2020, 1:08 AM

I think you can't truly know, I guess you have to assume that poker rooms are honest if you believe that you can win money in online poker otherwise it does not worth to play. In general, I believe that poker rooms are legit, but I don't trust 100% because of cases like Absolute Poker.

#21 July 22nd, 2020, 4:13 AM

Well, I asked a question at the end of my post and no one answered it other than the cliche of 'millions of hands needed' to get a grip on variance. Seriously, why?

My question was simple. Every day, all of us witness a player (most frequently the big stack) gain momentum and starting knocking all and sundry out with any two cards. We all (I mean everyone of us) see this 24/7 round the clock -feel free to state otherwise.

As noted, how can Random Number Generation give a player momentum? And then keep repeating that momentum 24 hours a day across all tables...

Well Occum's Razor for me.

The simplest (least conspiracy theory) explanation is that the software is weighted to do so. It would like to keep the MTT on schedule and spark a healthy attrition rate among players. As others have noted before, you could virtually set your clock to how some daily tourneys play down, hit the bubble, then final table. The regularity it risible. And please spare us all the rising blinds excuse, it does not pass muster. Make a direct comparison to live tourneys and note how they can play quickly or slowly.

The things is, I am simply a healthy skeptic, not a losing player - as some cliched poster will always claim about any contrarian poster.

Apart from momentum, I have numerous other issues with online play but so what? I deal with it and accept this is the deck we have to play with - literally and figuratively.

People can opt to play or not and my attitude is limit your exposure.

#22 July 22nd, 2020, 4:30 AM

Originally Posted by DeuceParade

Sweet graph, terryk. Glad you have it "figured out" How can you prove you are not being cheated in online poker?

https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/i/DeuceParade/terryk.png?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds

58th out of 43,212,,, Win.jpg How can you prove you are not being cheated in online poker?

figure this,,,

#23 July 22nd, 2020, 4:51 AM

Originally Posted by perrypip

You can track hand histories and find anomalies.

That the best way to know, have programs that take your plays and make a rastering. If there is a lot of thigs that is not cool you will see.

#24 July 22nd, 2020, 7:16 PM

I think it is very difficult to know, which is why I prefer to only play freerolls and generate money from what I earn in these tournaments. That if I understand that if I ever want to withdraw that money I need a previous deposit. if I'm wrong I hope someone corrects me

#25 July 22nd, 2020, 8:00 PM

Originally Posted by RiverRick

Can you really truly ever know? Couldn't they just write the program so their buddies win all the big hands?

Just stay away from tables their buddies are playing on. You are welcome. How can you prove you are not being cheated in online poker?

#26 July 22nd, 2020, 8:30 PM

Originally Posted by DS3

Well, I asked a question at the end of my post and no one answered it other than the cliche of 'millions of hands needed' to get a grip on variance. Seriously, why?

My question was simple. Every day, all of us witness a player (most frequently the big stack) gain momentum and starting knocking all and sundry out with any two cards. We all (I mean everyone of us) see this 24/7 round the clock -feel free to state otherwise.

As noted, how can Random Number Generation give a player momentum? And then keep repeating that momentum 24 hours a day across all tables...

Well Occum's Razor for me.

The simplest (least conspiracy theory) explanation is that the software is weighted to do so. It would like to keep the MTT on schedule and spark a healthy attrition rate among players. As others have noted before, you could virtually set your clock to how some daily tourneys play down, hit the bubble, then final table. The regularity it risible. And please spare us all the rising blinds excuse, it does not pass muster. Make a direct comparison to live tourneys and note how they can play quickly or slowly.

The things is, I am simply a healthy skeptic, not a losing player - as some cliched poster will always claim about any contrarian poster.

Apart from momentum, I have numerous other issues with online play but so what? I deal with it and accept this is the deck we have to play with - literally and figuratively.

People can opt to play or not and my attitude is limit your exposure.

LOL

#27 July 22nd, 2020, 8:38 PM

Nominating this thread be moved to the 'MEGA' thread. ... sigh

#28 July 22nd, 2020, 8:44 PM

Originally Posted by RiverRick

Can you really truly ever know? Couldn't they just write the program so their buddies win all the big hands?

I am more than sure that some moments in online poker are set up by software developers and there is no getting away from it

#29 July 22nd, 2020, 9:23 PM

Originally Posted by jorgejarapy

I think it is very difficult to know, which is why I prefer to only play freerolls and generate money from what I earn in these tournaments. That if I understand that if I ever want to withdraw that money I need a previous deposit. if I'm wrong I hope someone corrects me

This so much. Make gains through free rolls and then capitalize on those gains. Many, if interested in poker, have no option but to play on line. If one is skeptical to any degree limit exposure.

Banks, insurance companies, airlines, utility companies, big pharma, auto companies have all paid tens of billions in fines and settlements for the frauds committed over the last several years. The poker industry has a checkered past.

Its human nature, the corporate world.

If anyone wants to defend poker sites with a born again zeal as though by definition they are a virtuous industry, knock your self out. I'll maintain my healthy skepticism.

#30 July 24th, 2020, 1:32 AM

I don�t know. I think it�s just and element of the gambling part of playing online. You just gotta hope the site operators are doing the best job they can in policing the issues.

#31 July 29th, 2020, 11:52 PM

The way you are asking this question is impossible. By definition the answer is no

#32 July 30th, 2020, 1:03 PM

Originally Posted by RiverRick

Can you really truly ever know? Couldn't they just write the program so their buddies win all the big hands?

It's not very likely. The big online poker sites are multi billion companies listed on the London stock exchange. It's just not worth their time and reputation to get involved in dishonesty.

#33 August 1st, 2020, 6:53 PM

You will never truly know 100% ever that you are or aren't being cheated.
Same thing playing live even or with people you know.
Whenever money is involved, there will always be some potential for someone trying to figure out how to scam or game the system to their advantage.
Welcome to the real world!

#34 August 10th, 2020, 1:29 PM

Good morning everyone.
It is a very interesting question, in relation to the confidence I have in the sites I play, that when I earn a high amount, the site will really pay me, it is 100%.
Now if you ask me if I think I'm being mistaken about the draw of the cards, I'll answer yes.
I watched a video about how the cards are drawn on a very famous website, but I was not convinced at all, I see the hands that are played in live poker, and I often see a player winning the hand with the second pair , rarely does anyone make a very strong hand, in online poker almost always when i'm in a hand against a villain always the two players hit something like a straight or flush, sometimes I do full and villain quads, finally results that have a probability very small to happen, and that in online poker happen very often.
This causes AA in online poker to lose more times than in live poker.

#35 August 12th, 2020, 7:42 PM

I don't think they're cheating. Why would they prefer another player? I've seen my friend at the final table in a bigger tournament. I've been at the final table before. But it was only a $ 16.50 superknockout tournament. I became 7. Even then, they could have cheated so I wouldn't get there.

#36 September 11th, 2020, 3:47 PM

Originally Posted by DS3

Agree with DizzyDeb717 - you can never truly know.

I take it for granted Random Number Generators have issues as they do not replicate true randomness. Beyond that from the minute I first watched any poker hands on line I thought everything looked suspect compared to live poker.

So I play on line (have no choice), am conservative and 'winning' if you will, but absolutely limit any exposure. As Deb noted, poker is rife with cheating which simply mirrors life in a broader sense.

I am fairly philosophical about it all and I do not quite go full conspiracy in that individuals are targeted personally. However, what I sense is players are profiled and then placed in streams- that when the cards hit the tables (for numerous reasons) one will find winning and losing seats.

A member called Deuce Parade recently contributed to a thread with a great post pointing out the EA Sports (FIFA Soccer) now track players ability and then 'level the playing field' so weaker players stay engaged on line....and of course EA Sports increases their bottom line in the process. Further to this they keep building your profile from successive visits. He then posed the question if they had the computing power to do this why would others not take advantage?

I agree and as I have said before if we actually knew how easy it was to weight card distribution in a subtle, virtually untraceable manner we would be shocked.

So I'll finish with with this. We have all played on line a million and one times to see a 'big stack' gain momentum. Day in and out this happens - strikingly obvious in MTTs. If Random Number Generation was truly random, how could any individual player enjoy momentum for an extended period?

Yet we witness players with miraculous momentum tourney in tourney out.

The deviation from True Randomness can also be so random that we can consider any faulty generator random, as long as it is not rigged. We don't need true random to play, just random enough so people don't abuse it.

#37 September 11th, 2020, 5:00 PM

Hi all! I am from Argentina and two months ago with the quarantine I started playing online poker
with fictitious money since in Argentina we do not have a lot of money and we cannot put in the account either. i win a free tournament for real silver and Last night I played my first 0.25 spin and go. I won the first, the second was for a prize of 2.50 I lost whit A J double pair on the flop against a K 6 straight on the river. then the third spin and go of my life was for 1.25 I lost again in an unusual way. and so he also lost the 4th. I feel many doubts because I just started to play

#38 September 11th, 2020, 5:26 PM

I believe that of course you cannot be sure, but the large rooms do a lot to combat fraud, you just don't need to think a lot about it and get hung up on it. Think about your game, about leveling up your skill, and the game will be fun.

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