The Bot Scandal and Collusion

I'm going to post a comment I made on a news article on here that sums up my intended message for this thread. I don't follow these types of things to closely but I was aware of this feud from reading news articles on cardschat. HERE is a link to the article about a poker streamer and wpns ceo and their feud. Don't get caught up in the article too much. If this thread was about that I would have posted in the News section.

"" People have been complaining about the bots for years. I've been harping on the rampant collusion as well for years. Others echo these sentiments, but collusion has been overshadowed by the bot drama. I'm glad to see someone finally got undisputable evidence of bots forcing change. Just think about how easy it would be to collude online and then think about your fellow human beings and their level of integrity. Now take the percentage of people who you consider to have low integrity, factor in the anonymity of the internet factor, double the percentage of low integrity human beings because we are talking about the international poker community. Now consider your faith in online poker security teams to be competent and hard working enough to catch genius colluders and also their willingness to do so. My math tells me that collusion is rampant. Also, I have witnessed it firsthand on multiple occasions and I play mostly low stakes. ""

There have naysayers about bots as long as there have been people complaining about them. I'm not saying I face collusion every time I sit down, but I feel like it is pretty common. I'd love to hear what my fellow cardschatters have to say about the prevalence of online collusion and anything else. I'd also like to add that it probably occurs most regularly at stakes between $1-2 to $3-6. Thanks for reading and good luck at the tables!

I think it exists at all stakes. The better the system of collusion, the higher up it can go. As far as prevalence, it's impossible to say.

The easiest conspiracy can be arranged in sit-and-go tournaments, for example, for 9 people. I came across this, if 2 or 3 people collude in such a tournament, they easily win. The winnings give each other alternately.

Unfortunately, i see it too. My biggest wish is that we had a fair shot. Thats all i ask but heres what is crazy; i still deposit my money knowing most likely ill be cheated somehow bc i love this game. I have lost a lot and won some. The good outweighs the bad bc i am up overall. It is what I tell myself

To be a profitable player, we have much to overcome.We have to be lucky and good, and overcome bots and collusion.

We cant see the dealer, we cant see the person that collects the money, We cant even see the people we are playing against.

Sad thing is ive been talking about bots for many years, collusion is something totally different.

I would honestly rather have online poker sites shut down than to have so many questionable things and possibilities for unfairness.

I mean if i was a sponsored streamer playing with thousands of other peoples/ the sites money it would be totally different i guess.

If the evidence shows some day, I just leave the room.

I've encountered both, studied both (collusion online and live) and lived and learned.

freestocks said:

To be a profitable player, we have much to overcome.We have to be lucky and good, and overcome bots and collusion.

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I agree. This is really the only way I think. It is what it is? lol

a collusion is as big of a problem as the bots but I don’t think they can overcome both at once so let’s focus on one then work on next and collusion I feel will be the hardest of the two to get rid of because how do u prove it

ScooperNova said:

I'm going to post a comment I made on a news article on here that sums up my intended message for this thread. I don't follow these types of things to closely but I was aware of this feud from reading news articles on cardschat. HERE is a link to the article about a poker streamer and wpns ceo and their feud. Don't get caught up in the article too much. If this thread was about that I would have posted in the News section.

"" People have been complaining about the bots for years. I've been harping on the rampant collusion as well for years. Others echo these sentiments, but collusion has been overshadowed by the bot drama. I'm glad to see someone finally got undisputable evidence of bots forcing change. Just think about how easy it would be to collude online and then think about your fellow human beings and their level of integrity. Now take the percentage of people who you consider to have low integrity, factor in the anonymity of the internet factor, double the percentage of low integrity human beings because we are talking about the international poker community. Now consider your faith in online poker security teams to be competent and hard working enough to catch genius colluders and also their willingness to do so. My math tells me that collusion is rampant. Also, I have witnessed it firsthand on multiple occasions and I play mostly low stakes. ""

There have naysayers about bots as long as there have been people complaining about them. I'm not saying I face collusion every time I sit down, but I feel like it is pretty common. I'd love to hear what my fellow cardschatters have to say about the prevalence of online collusion and anything else. I'd also like to add that it probably occurs most regularly at stakes between $1-2 to $3-6. Thanks for reading and good luck at the tables!

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I personally believe that until many players start to withdraw their funds massively from the rooms no one will do anything with the bots or the collusions, in fact I think this even suits the poker rooms because for example if they suspend a suspicious account of collusion or suspected of being a bot, they simply close the account and they cheat with the money without returning anything to the affected players, so it is one more way to earn money that the rooms have.

This kinda stuff is why I only ever used to play live, it's much harder to cheat live.

Sadly, when I decided I wanted to pursue poker, as there aren't enough live games near where I live I had to give up and start playing online.

Hopefully one day I will be back to playing mostly live but in the mean time I stick to the biggest name sites as I feel that it makes sense that they'll be the most secure & trustworthy.

Down with bots and cheaters! [emoji1304]

. Now take the percentage of people who you consider to have low integrity, factor in the anonymity of the internet factor, double the percentage of low integrity human beings because we are talking about the international poker community. Now consider your faith in online poker security teams to be competent and hard working enough to catch genius colluders and also their willingness to do so. My math tells me that collusion is rampant. Also, I have witnessed it firsthand on multiple occasions and I play mostly low stakes. ""


Couldnt agree with you more. Never put it past anyone to try to steal a dollar especially when gambling.
I have played with bots before and learned to play against them because the site wouldnt believe me stating they were bots for months on ACR.

Never got a dollar of compensation either fyi if you were wondering

I think it happens, thieves are always willing to learn new ways to make money as much easier as possible. I can guarantee there are ways while i've met some guys few years ago that was pretty much doing it. 4 people rented an apartment and been playing all toghether. pokerstars got them after 2 months but they still walked away with 800K. Nowadays its easy to travel anywhere worldwide and open accounts and most people see that people from different parts of the world are playing at the same table (which is something common) what they don't know is that they are living into the same apartment and communicating cards all the time. Many would think even in this way is hard to work it but the advantage is enormous. Now, i don't know anything about them anymore, but it's not hard to see that some players are doing it. Be aware everytime you sit and if the game become strange just leave the table.

So relieved i’m not just being paranoid

Hey everybody! My first time participating on cards chat and this is specifically what I was questioning. My poker life is really just getting started but I have done well, won a couple of bar tournaments, cashed in 2 $100 casino tournaments, and outright won another! Online I have stayed even from wins and losses in low stakes tournament play. My reluctance to work on my cash game has been based on the expectation of collusion and bots in cash games online. I am sure there are adjustments i need to be making to my game between tournament and cash play, but I have terrible experiences so far sitting at a cash table online. Nothing seems to go my way, what I think are great plays that should get people out of the hand or I have the best hands prefolp-turn only to get busted on the river by someone who called me the whole way down for that one card on their gutshot. Almost as if they KNOW that it wasn’t in their opponents hole cards.

bots

i actually dont mind bots - as long they dont get any advantage. not sure what it should be but i happily play a bot or two.i think bots make money drawing from (just guessing the percentage ) 80 % of people playing and equals with 18% and loose to 2% so overall for the owner of the bot it is an ok deal.but again dont think markup per bot is that great so need to have alot of bots going at the same time 24/7

of course if they collude thats entirely different. but same goes for people - if they collude they should be fined and banned

toteucelbun said:

I can guarantee there are ways while i've met some guys few years ago that was pretty much doing it. 4 people rented an apartment and been playing all toghether. Pokerstars got them after 2 months but they still walked away with 800K. Nowadays its easy to travel anywhere worldwide and open accounts and most people see that people from different parts of the world are playing at the same table (which is something common) what they don't know is that they are living into the same apartment and communicating cards all the time.

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Why rent an appartment? Why travel?

Video Conferencing is just as old as online poker and is much cheaper...

ScooperNova said:

I'd also like to add that it probably occurs most regularly at stakes between $1-2 to $3-6. Thanks for reading and good luck at the tables!

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I am not playing stakes that high, but it does make sense, that the motive to cheat increase, when you move up, where people are playing for more serious money, and where edges are also getting much smaller. In the micros there is always another donkey waiting around the corner to dust of a stack to you. So you dont really need to cheat to show a profit, and colluding takes away from your ability to multi table.

I have played for a little over a yeah at Stars and 3 weeks at 888, and I am pretty confident, there are no or very few bots or colluders at the 2-25NL cash tables on these two sites. I kind of know, what to look for, and my HUD help me to have a memory as well. And so far everything seems pretty normal with the other players and in particular those, who play a lot, as cheaters would tend to do.

Also the other site of the coin is, that most people think, they are great at poker, but most people lose, because it is a zero sum game, and there is rake. And they also underestimate the magnitude of variance. So when people lose, rather than admit, they might not be as good, as they think, or blame it on variance, they tend to blame it on factors like "bots", or on the poker site itself being "rigged".

Sometimes the explanations are completely non-sensical like "OH MY GOD, THAT GUY CALLED MY ALL IN WITH 72 AND RIVERED TWO PAIR TO CRACK MY ACES, THAT F...... SITE IS FULL OF BOTS, HOW CAN ANYONE PLAY THERE????"

Explanations that certainly express a lot of emotions, but also a complete lack of logic. Because why on earth would someone program a computer to make terrible long term losing plays like going all in before the flop with 72? That makes no sense at all.

However human players might sometimes go all in before the flop with 72, because they think, its fun to see, if the worst starting hand in poker can win a big pot. Or maybe they made a prop bet with their buddy after watching the 72 game on TV.

So rather than being outraged about it, the person, who got his aces cracked, should just take it with a smile and understand, that not everyone takes the game as serious, as he does. And then of course be sure, he is properly bankrolled for the games, he is playing.

Collusion

If this is happening at the penny tables I play at, it is truly pathetic. You could make more working for minimum wage than cheating with penny blinds.

If there was a sight that offered camera viewing, I would play there. I understand many people like to drink and smoke or do whatever, without being seen. But a simple camera would make me feel a little better.