Portugal has just made onljne poker and betting legal :'(

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ilostmysoul

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So far playing poker online in Portuga was easy. You deposited, you won, you withdrew. Boom, done, nobody had anything to do with it. Today's morning, however, portugal decided that online betting is now legal. It wasn't illegal before, but now it's under strict control. You need to declare all your winnings, and give 15-30% of them away (5-10% on sports betting). The good news is that poker room software can now be tested by any means our government decides to. If you have clear proof the software is rigged, you now have courts to back you up. It also makes it impossible for underage to withdraw. So not all is bad.
The law isn't written yet, so at least until June everything will remain unchanged.

Here's the thing: does anyone know how exactly this works? Is it that everytime I want to withdraw I have to go somewhere saying how much I want to withdraw? And taking variance into account, does this make microstakes unprofitable for the most part?
Thanks :)
 
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dj11

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My guess (semi-educated) is that the poker sites will make reports to the Portuguese government.

I'm fairly sure the sites will willingly comply. It may be necessary to put it into the new law, and thus 'license' the sites. Withdrawals shouldn't change much at those sites that are 'licensed'.
 
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ilostmysoul

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My guess (semi-educated) is that the poker sites will make reports to the Portuguese government.

I'm fairly sure the sites will willingly comply. It may be necessary to put it into the new law, and thus 'license' the sites. Withdrawals shouldn't change much at those sites that are 'licensed'.

Yea they said some things about licensing them so good guess :D

So let's say that I go into a tournament and win $100 in pokerstars after the law has been fully approved. Can I take it out and go on with my life? I'm still waiting for a major portuguese website to put an article up about this, but so far no cigar :p
 
curtinsea

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My reading is that the bill has been approved by the Council of Ministers, but has not been signed (yet) by President Aníbal António Cavaco Silva, so it isn't yet law.

What the bill will do is allow operators not in Portugal to offer gaming, under regulations and with a license, to players in Portugal.

So let's say that I go into a tournament and win $100 in PokerStars after the law has been fully approved. Can I take it out and go on with my life? I'm still waiting for a major portuguese website to put an article up about this, but so far no cigar :p

Should be fine, assuming Pokerstars seeks and obtains a license. If they don't, it could be problematic.
 
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ilostmysoul

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My reading is that the bill has been approved by the Council of Ministers, but has not been signed (yet) by President Aníbal António Cavaco Silva, so it isn't yet law.

What the bill will do is allow operators not in Portugal to offer gaming, under regulations and with a license, to players in Portugal.



Should be fine, assuming Pokerstars seeks and obtains a license. If they don't, it could be problematic.

Great, so I might have misread the news :p I was thinking I needed to go somewhere local and say how much I wanted to withdraw, and they would tell me how much I had to pay or something. So thanks for the enlightenment :)
 
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seghill

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it will be interesting to hear how the law will work - definition of winnings etc.
Does that mean that all including recreational players can also claim expenses?
 
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gipetto541

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that is awesome!,...its about time someone made a good decision when it comes to online poker
 
FastOne

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My reading is that the bill has been approved by the Council of Ministers, but has not been signed (yet) by President Aníbal António Cavaco Silva, so it isn't yet law.

What the bill will do is allow operators not in Portugal to offer gaming, under regulations and with a license, to players in Portugal.



Should be fine, assuming Pokerstars seeks and obtains a license. If they don't, it could be problematic.
Are you saying that in order to play online poker in Portugal, if this bill becomes law, every poker room would have to obtain a license in Portugal, if they want people living there to be able to use their software?

Meaning that people living in Portugal will only be able to play at poker rooms with a specific license from Portugal and subjected to Portugal's regulations?
 
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ilostmysoul

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Are you saying that in order to play online poker in Portugal, if this bill becomes law, every poker room would have to obtain a license in Portugal, if they want people living there to be able to use their software?

Meaning that people living in Portugal will only be able to play at poker rooms with a specific license from Portugal and subjected to Portugal's regulations?

Yes that one is true. I don't see how major poker rooms won't obey, but that's exactly it.

My only doubt about this news was if we, the players, also had some new obligations regarding taxes. Still no word from Portuguese poker websites besides what came to the newspapers. I'm assuming if we were supposed to change something regarding withdraws one of these websites would state exactly what we needed to do in order to remain legal :p
 
almanik

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If they want to have 15% from every winning, they must to pay 15% of every loss. Or not?
 
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ilostmysoul

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Actually nevermind, one of the websites just confirmed. The taxes do not apply to the players. The 15-30% taxes regarding profits coming from online poker, and 5-15% from sports betting apply to the poker rooms / betting websites. Meaning, in order to remain legal in Portugal, they will have to pay for a license, and those 30% are taxes from the legalization.

Apparently it's around the EU average, it's just that Portugal is one of the smallest countries (or actually the smallest) in the EU that wasn't following any taxation for the online rooms, albeit it was already happening on bigger countries, with more players. So we can count on some of rooms backing down and stop allowing portuguese players, since there are not that many of us (compared to larger populations) to balance the loss. This is exactly what the government/media want, since they spent the last few days showing us the most negative side of gambling (addicts, rehab, people who went bankrupt, etc).
 
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avner

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its a good start, considering poker legal.
they probably will will charge the tax from every withdraw and ask for kind of statment showing yearly outcome for refunding tax for loses, that if they want to tax the players.
 
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bnasp2

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Its important how you count the profit.
Is it total profit per year?

Because it really sucks if you are MTT player, have good months and bad months. And pay hig tax on good months and no refund on months with loss.
 
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ilostmysoul

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Its important how you count the profit.
Is it total profit per year?

Because it really sucks if you are MTT player, have good months and bad months. And pay hig tax on good months and no refund on months with loss.

+/-. The poker room has to pay the taxes before giving us the prizez. So if we win, say $50 in a tournament, the poker room itself will take 30% and give it to the government. And even if we go abroad as Portuguese citizens, everything we win in the tournaments is taxed as 30% to Portugal.
And we keep whatever is left after they pay the tax.
 
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captainD

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+/-. The poker room has to pay the taxes before giving us the prizez. So if we win, say $50 in a tournament, the poker room itself will take 30% and give it to the government. And even if we go abroad as Portuguese citizens, everything we win in the tournaments is taxed as 30% to Portugal.
And we keep whatever is left after they pay the tax.

How certain are you of this? Has there been any further updates?
 
Marcwantstowin

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Hi - Ilostmysoul. Having read your post, it seems to me that you should be careful. Until it is written in law, I would be very careful that it is not just a scam to get more taxes out of you "the poker player". I understand that things are pretty dire in Portugal at the moment, with employment and interest rates etc. Are you sure that the government haven't seen this as a way to get extra coffers into their funds?

I have played with players from Portugal for while and not just recently, so I would continue as you are and beware of anything until it is written in law. Gl to you Marc :D:D:D
 
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The taxes are way too high for our market... a blind folded monkey would understand the only way to get revenue and operators to get in with licences is to offer a SMALLER tax, so you can attract big biz and make some money...

Plus im free to evade tax like i see fit, lets be honest i for one DO NOT want to pay tax on any of my winnings and i dont give a shit about the "your protected" argument because its simply not true... if i get ripped off the Gov wont give a shit, not in this instance or any other... i do not believe there will be one single instance that a complaint about a slot, poker game, you name it, will get any of the guys at Turismo de Portugal working... i dare anyone comming here and say otherwise.

Even in the reunions with players associations, only one in Portugal, it was obvious they had the money angle and above all sports bets in the cross fire. This is the real issue, this is all about CR7, SLB, FCP and the league, they want a piece of the money, had no idea how much it involved and when now it is normal and popular they want to cash on it... Poker, slots and bingo are a side effect... affiliates will most likely pay for the tax and thats that...
 
Marcwantstowin

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it will be interesting to hear how the law will work - definition of winnings etc.
Does that mean that all including recreational players can also claim expenses?


Of course. If the government take 10% - 15% tax on your winnings, they must take into account your expenses, and your losses. Should they not re-imberse you for losses, I would say you should be able to claim back 10% - 15% of your losses? And therefore to claim tax from your winnings should you not be able to claim expenses? For internet, ect?

My final tought with that is GOOD LUCK. However, if you got together with a half decent lawyer, he/she sshould be able to advise and make a land mark case. BUT remember what has recently happened in Greece and I don't think that has fully played out yet!! Gl :D:D:D
 
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How are they going to calculate tax, surely should be on Total Profit and not total Winnings.

What if you binked a tournement for 100K but ran really bad for the rest of the year and ended up about 10K in profit surely you should only pay taxes on profit not total winnnings.

I remember reading once that ceerrtain countries taxed you on winnings for every hand WTF Id never play if that was the case

You could end up a loser and owe tax :eek:
 
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Ja_Ray_Rob

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How are they going to calculate tax, surely should be on Total Profit and not total Winnings.

What if you binked a tournement for 100K but ran really bad for the rest of the year and ended up about 10K in profit surely you should only pay taxes on profit not total winnnings.

I remember reading once that ceerrtain countries taxed you on winnings for every hand WTF Id never play if that was the case

You could end up a loser and owe tax :eek:

That all sounds terrible.. I hope it never comes to that.. I highly enjoy sitting here comfortably and playing poker.. but if that day comes, I will be done with online poker!
 
crazyforchips

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I guess portugal's government saw a lot of money coming in from online poker sites, so they saw a nice opportunity to tax the income. Which is a good thing actually, keeps inflation in check.
 
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capara20

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this is actually great, poker should always be legal !
 
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