Living in Virginia not good for online poker

mange1234

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Living in the State of Virginia is not a good place to live if one is hoping to play legal on line poker. Seems, this State Government is against allowing online poker here.

I have done my part and sent messages to all of the politicians. And, get a non-committal "caned" message back.

I met my 2nd District Congressman Riggell at the voting poles during his first run for Congressman, and mentioned the desire of many Virginians to legalize on line poker. Not sure it did any good.

Also, wrote to the Governor and Senators.

Can't do much more than that. Just hope that some one with a higher pay grade than mine can do something.

I am 75 years old and, of course retired, and On line poker helps me while away the day. lol

Thanks for listening,

Mike
 
pwning666hellmuth

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Dude I so feel your pain. I currently live in Washington state and online poker its a class c felony here. I am lucky that bovada recently open its doors back up to Wa. St players...but I really wish I could play on blackchippoker and carbon...
 
curtinsea

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Dude I so feel your pain. I currently live in Washington state and online poker its a class c felony here. I am lucky that bovada recently open its doors back up to Wa. St players...but I really wish I could play on blackchippoker and carbon...

When did Bovada open up to WA players?
 
pwning666hellmuth

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About 3 or 4 months ago
 
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Do it anyway

It's not a crime if you don't get caught :)

It's hard to find any live table games down south..... I play nothing but online now.
 
dmorris68

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I'm pretty sure playing online poker isn't "illegal" in Virginia, at least no more so than any other state without specific legislation outlawing it. WA state is one of the few, if not only, states with legislation specifically outlawing online poker. Maryland possibly, as I hear their anti-gambling legislation is written in such a way as it could easily be enforced against online gaming. I don't think even Kentucky, whose governor has been on an anti-online-poker crusade for years, has passed any statutes outlawing online poker.

It's a common misconception that playing online poker is "illegal" in the US. Other than those very few states (e.g. WA) with specific legislation in place that makes it illegal, it's not true. And there are no federal laws against online poker, either. So for the vast majority of US players, there is nothing illegal about playing online poker.

That said, there is still a considerable difference between being "legal" and "not illegal." Obviously we'd prefer active legalization and regulation if for nothing else than to protect ourselves as players. Without a legislated and regulated online gaming environment, unless we live in the few states that have recently legalized and regulated online poker, we're left taking our chances with the offshore sites who choose to continue doing business in the US, while working around the US financial institutions who refuse to handle payments because they're afraid of running afoul of the UIGEA (which could be argued not to apply to online poker anywhere that poker isn't specifically outlawed).

Point of all that being to the OP: much (if not most) of CardsChat is made up of US players who are still playing online poker somewhere. Just because your state hasn't specifically legalized it, as long as they haven't outlawed it, you aren't breaking any laws by playing. You're just taking your chances with a site that can choose to take your money and run, or be shutdown because they themselves violated laws.
 
wagon596

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I feel you, I'm 67 myself... I really don't know what I'd do all day without poker. I play micro tournaments, but able to make $100 to $150 dollars a month. Being that my only other income is Social Security every little bit helps.
 
curtinsea

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I'm pretty sure playing online poker isn't "illegal" in Virginia, at least no more so than any other state without specific legislation outlawing it. WA state is one of the few, if not only, states with legislation specifically outlawing online poker. Maryland possibly, as I hear their anti-gambling legislation is written in such a way as it could easily be enforced against online gaming. I don't think even Kentucky, whose governor has been on an anti-online-poker crusade for years, has passed any statutes outlawing online poker.

It's a common misconception that playing online poker is "illegal" in the US. Other than those very few states (e.g. WA) with specific legislation in place that makes it illegal, it's not true. And there are no federal laws against online poker, either. So for the vast majority of US players, there is nothing illegal about playing online poker.

That said, there is still a considerable difference between being "legal" and "not illegal." Obviously we'd prefer active legalization and regulation if for nothing else than to protect ourselves as players. Without a legislated and regulated online gaming environment, unless we live in the few states that have recently legalized and regulated online poker, we're left taking our chances with the offshore sites who choose to continue doing business in the US, while working around the US financial institutions who refuse to handle payments because they're afraid of running afoul of the UIGEA (which could be argued not to apply to online poker anywhere that poker isn't specifically outlawed).

Point of all that being to the OP: much (if not most) of CardsChat is made up of US players who are still playing online poker somewhere. Just because your state hasn't specifically legalized it, as long as they haven't outlawed it, you aren't breaking any laws by playing. You're just taking your chances with a site that can choose to take your money and run, or be shutdown because they themselves violated laws.

The UIGEA is not as ambiguous regarding internet poker as you imply. While acting as a player is not specifically illegal in many, if not most states, in order for an internet poker operator to be a lawful entity, it must hold a gaming license in the jurisdiction in which it is operating.

Currently there are only two states where an operator can get a license (DE is different, they have a single, state-sponsored platform, and do not license other entities to participate in that market).

So, any site serving players in any of the other 48 states is doing so as an unlawful internet gaming operation, as are any sites operating in NJ/NV without a license, and thus transactions to and from those operations violate the UIGEA.
 
dmorris68

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The UIGEA is not as ambiguous regarding internet poker as you imply. While acting as a player is not specifically illegal in many, if not most states, in order for an internet poker operator to be a lawful entity, it must hold a gaming license in the jurisdiction in which it is operating.
Well, I did use the phrase 'could be argued' when suggesting that UIGEA may not apply to online poker anywhere it isn't specifically legislated against. But that was more an aside tossed in -- the bulk of my post was directed at the OP's apparent concern about playing legally. And it holds that unless he's in WA or some other state I'm not aware of with specific online-poker-playing legislation on the books, it is not and has never been illegal to play online poker.

So derailing a bit on the UIGEA argument, can you direct me to any legal discussion or precedent that says existing licensing authorities that were setup to regulate conventional B&M operators automatically apply by default to online gaming as well? Other than KY's crusade against poker-related domain names years ago, I don't recall any state initiated actions against online sites based on violations of their state licensing laws. You would think there would have at least been a few.

Based on much of what I've read, including some sources that included state-by-state legal opinions of online gaming, the vast majority of states don't yet have laws that could be assumed to apply as written to online poker. Those with licensing statutes as you mention are by and large clearly written for physical, B&M operators and were never equipped to consider online licenses; therefore the idea that online gaming would automatically be subject to the same licensing statutes could indeed be argued.

I would see it as similar to the Federal Wire Act not being applicable to online poker, which should have been clear to even a layman's reading of the law, but that didn't stop the DOJ from arguing that the Wire Act did indeed apply to online poker for years -- and using it as basis for a number of online poker seizures and actions, including BF -- before reversing their position in late 2011. Despite the 5th Circuit Court of Appeals ruling way back in 2002 that the Wire Act did not apply to online gaming.

Which I think is responsible for what amounts to a bit of a gap in state legislation. I expect most states had not enacted specific online gaming statutes because they were likely assured that the DOJ would prosecute online gaming under the Wire Act. Now that the Act has been neutered with regards to online gaming, it not only opened the door to states being able to legalize online poker, but left a gap in existing statutes that didn't specifically apply themselves to online gaming. So I expect most states would find themselves challenged to enforce their licensing laws against online poker, and therefore use it as a basis for UIGEA action. So far, only WA state seemed to be troubled enough by this to move forward with specific laws against online gaming.

Note also that prior to BF, for several years there were fairly regular DOJ actions and seizures, almost all of which claimed Wire Act violations. When UIGEA was fully enacted, you started hearing UIGEA violations added in (again usually in concert with the Wire Act). But since BF and the DOJ's reversal on the Wire Act, UIGEA actions against remaining US-facing sites are materially non-existent. If virtually all states, as you claim, had enforceable laws against online gaming, then UIGEA would fully apply in all cases and the DOJ -- not only the states themselves -- could still be taking action. Why aren't they?

I agree that there's some states with legislation on the books that's probably "close enough" -- the aforementioned Maryland for instance -- and that's probably why those handful of states are being dropped by several US-facing poker sites. They know in those cases they're skating dangerously close to a UIGEA enforcement against them, and they know from BF and other cases that being offshore doesn't always make them untouchable or free of serious consequence.

So, any site serving players in any of the other 48 states is doing so as an unlawful internet gaming operation, as are any sites operating in NJ/NV without a license, and thus transactions to and from those operations violate the UIGEA.
Again, I'd like to understand how the conclusion can be drawn that online poker operation is illegal by default in the remaining 48 states, based strictly on the assumption that existing licensing statutes will apply to online operations. Maybe a few states, even several, but I just can't see the vast majority of states taking this position. It just seems that if there were 40+ states with legal standing against online gaming, there would have been more actions that didn't depend on the flawed Wire Act interpretation to justify UIGEA enforcement.

But again, we derail. There is a clear legal distinction between playing online poker and operating an online poker site. It's very clear that playing is not illegal in almost all states. The operation argument is much less clear and from what I understand, has certainly not seen much clarification by way of legal precedent so far. I'd welcome your insight and experience though in pointing me to resources that might clear that up for me.
 
curtinsea

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I think if that argument could be made, pokerstars would have made it, would not have settled, and would still be serving most states in the US. Pokerstars wasn't charged with Wire Act violations. Instead, an underlying NY law was used as the basis for charging UIGEA violations. That law does not specifically apply to internet gambling. Also, money laundering charges were brought, which require an underlying criminal activity as the source of the money being laundered.

So while the number of states where unlicensed internet poker would bring UIGEA into play may not be 48, I think it is fair to say that in most instances, unlicensed sites would be viewed as violation UIGEA
 
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I don't imagine living anywhere in the USA, especially in parts closer to the South, is an any place for online poker. On this Superbowl weekend, let's not forget that when the UIGEA was introduced a few years ago, tied to a completely unrelated port security bill, that the politicians associated with the UIGEA were strongly encouraged by the NFL to pass it, because online poker was having a negative effect on sports betting.
 
A

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congratulations for your effort and commitment to the online poker
 
Vfranks

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I live in Virginia as well, and I have sent numerous letters and emails to various people in power..I have never got anything back but a general automated response, never ever having anything to do with poker or gambling, but more to do with why I should re-elect them. Then I get stuck on their mailing list, and get every future campaign promotion and what they view as achievements and spam and more spam.
 
rifflemao

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I feel you, I'm 67 myself... I really don't know what I'd do all day without poker. I play micro tournaments, but able to make $100 to $150 dollars a month. Being that my only other income is Social Security every little bit helps.

Indeed it does. This is definitely a perspective worth sharing with your congressman if you haven't already.
 
Vfranks

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I do play at almost all the major sites that still cater to the USA though. A lot of people DO think it is illegal to play online poker, the majority of people I talk to actually. It gets old trying to explain to them time after time about how it is not illegal to play poker, but rather to run a poker site/payment processor.

The closest casino is Maryland Live, which according to Google Maps, is a 2hour58min drive from my house.There are others that are not too much farther..Charles TownWVA, acNJ, & DoverDE all have casinos, but Maryland live is the current closest for me, from Williamsburg, VA

There are local, bar league, poker games.. but not worth the time and effort for the prizes they offer, at least the closest bar league.
There are some leagues that give cash prizes, but that is technically illegal in this state.. and at least a 45 min drive to the closest venue.

Colonial Downs Horse-Track has at least 1, if not 2 or 3 freerolls that offer a $500 betting voucher, if you get first...but I've seen the final table chop more often than not. You can then use the voucher towards a 10c trifecta, or whatever and take the rest back in cash...but the next day because the poker game ends after all of the betting windows are closed. So it's basically just like winning cash, but in this state that is supposedly illegal, so they give you a betting voucher instead.

There are also plenty of home cash games around, I know of at least 1 every night of the week in the Hampton Roads area. If you go play at the bar leagues you will eventualy hear about a cash game or tournament at someones house, and if your not a total weirdo..prolly get invited lol. :D

Some of them are run like at a casino, with free booze and a dealer, but they take a rake..highly illegal also, and you hear about a gambling house getting busted every once in a while in the news.

The others are just self dealt, no rake or "optional" $5 donation when u buy in, BYOB...usually at a neighborhood clubhouse. If you double your original buy in or more, than you "donate" another 5% or so, and it all goes towards the swim team or club house your playing at.

From my understanding, in Virginia, you can make a bet with someone else as long as a third party is not profiting/taking rake, and it is not illegal. So if you were playing at one of the poker houses taking rake, and it got busted, you would not get in trouble for playing..but the people running it would.

Sorry I started to ramble and stuff..

CLIFNOTES:
Poker sucks in VA, but at least there are some games..
 
jazzaxe

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Having the means to play the game online and not be shut out by the site would lead me to believe that you will be able to play and still be able to avoid individual prosecution. I have never heard of an online player from being prosecuted. They usually are concerned with the operators and money changers.
 
mange1234

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Ain't that the thruth

It's not a crime if you don't get caught :)

It's hard to find any live table games down south..... I play nothing but online now.


Aint that the thrust.

Mike
 
Vfranks

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It's not a crime if you don't get caught :)

It's hard to find any live table games down south..... I play nothing but online now.

Aint that the thrust.

Mike
I am in Virginia, so not deep south, but I have no trouble finding live games. I actually know of a live cash game every night of the week, and sometimes more than 1 location(Friday and Saturday nights usually). It did take me a while to find them all though. I just played in the bar leagues for a while then eventually got invited to one..then before I knew it I had a list of games for every night of the week.
There used to be a site you could go to and it actually listed live home games in your area, it was similar to craigslist... not sure if that site still exists, and was and still am hesitant to use it...cuz u never know about people you meet on the interwebz..
 
mange1234

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Living in Virginia and Flying the Texas Flag

I feel you, I'm 67 myself... I really don't know what I'd do all day without poker. I play micro tournaments, but able to make $100 to $150 dollars a month. Being that my only other income is Social Security every little bit helps.

Hey Wagon,

I see you live in Virginia and and flying the Texas Logo. lol I use to live in Texas, but now live in Virginia Beach.

Being retired, and 76 years of age, I don't have any difficulty finding stuff to do. Seems, there is not enough time in the day for me. With all the things to do.

I have to struggle to find time for On Line Poker. Mostly at nite.

What part of Virginiia do you Live?

Mike
 
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