Do you agree with UK Supreme Court Decision Against Phil Ivey (Edge-Sorting)?

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https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/mo...ey-loses-uk-case-wont-get-millions/ar-AAu1wCP

I think it's a joke. House always wins right? Maybe this casino should train the dealers better so they don't change how they deal the cards without floor approval. Or maybe they should do the honorable thing and pay Ivey the money he rightfully won. The casino had multiple chances to "stop" the winning either by instructing the dealer to follow their dealing rules only, banning Ivey from the casino (although that's a little scummy), or just shut down that table for a while which is within their right.

Sounds like the casino lost a bit more than they had planned for and had to cheat to get their money back from Ivey.
 
mtl mile end

mtl mile end

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Definitely a grey area. When it comes to things like card counting at a blackjack table, the casinos are clearly wrong, "cheating" the players, etc. They have to fall back on banning and blacklisting counters because "they are too good".

Edge sorting, not so much. Although the casino cries foul, the real responsibility rests with the dealer, the card manufacturer, and ultimately the casino for using those cards and allowing (making it SOP) the dealers to acquiesce to the players requests to see cards/have cards handled in a certain way.

If all the backs/edges of cards were identical- and aren't we ALL assuming that? - this would not be possible. If the procedures and cards remain unchanged, it will occur over and over. If you get a dealer on your side, it would be even easier, although it may be harder to "cover up".
 
mtl mile end

mtl mile end

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Also, this is exactly the same thing that Ivey did at the Borgata in AC where he also lost the suit for $10.1 M

https://www.pokernews.com/news/2016/12/court-orders-phil-ivey-to-return-10m-to-borgata-26638.htm

I can't say I have a problem with casinos not allowing Phil Ivey to walk in and grab millions of dollars whenever he feels like it because the deck is imperfect and the dealer agreeable. If this were a game against other players and not the house, wouldn't you consider it cheating if someone noticed a defect in the deck and decided to keep quiet and use it to their advantage? What if you were at a poker table with such a person? What do you do at a poker table when you spot a defect or a flashed card?
 
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UK is a pioneer of gambling. People think Vegas and USA invented gambling but they are wrong. The whole concept of horse racing and dog racing is from UK.

The UK doesn't let you abuse your experience and use filthy tactics to run a casino dry. The casino staff get paid only if the casino keeps profiting. You may not like or care about the owner/CEO of the casinos but the staff are middle class parents with children to feed so before you run them dry think of what you are doing by making a casino bankrupt.

Ivey can play poker where it's fine to be good as the business is not run dry yet he choose to abuse his statistically-trained brain in games that run casinos dry and the UK is not going to let some arrogant guy like Ivey walk into our country and abuse it. He can go back to his corrupt nation and run them dry if he wants.
 
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Adam9044

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I can't say I have a problem with casinos not allowing Phil Ivey to walk in and grab millions of dollars whenever he feels like it because the deck is imperfect and the dealer agreeable.

The issue is, this is exactly what they did do. Then sued him over the losses. I'm curious at what point they figured out they got played. Any competent staff member should have had all flags raised.


If this were a game against other players and not the house, wouldn't you consider it cheating if someone noticed a defect in the deck and decided to keep quiet and use it to their advantage?

Absolutely not, although I would concede that this is not quite the issue. Ivey brought in his own cards that he knew had a defect. This changes things a bit, but I still have trouble seeing it as cheating. It's undeniably a dick move, but considering the casino threw away their house cards and didnt mind the dealer turning them, so I really just see it as an updated rulebook.

You and your friends are hanging out and wanting to play poker. You have a brand new pack of cards, but your friend convinces the group to use his old ones because they will shuffle better.

Can you really call your friend a cheater because he knows the wear patterns? You had every oppertunity to back out of the clearly shady situation, but instead agreed to it.

Its a dick move, its angle shooting, but I can't call it cheating.

What if you were at a poker table with such a person?

What do you do at a poker table when you spot a defect or a flashed card?

I'm not an angel, if this happens to me there is a 99% chance I will use it to my advantage.

Now let me ask you a question, if it turns out that the cards the casino was normally using had a similar defect, do you think they would repay everybody who played with those cards? At best the spotter and their table might get a refund in hopes it doesnt blow up any bigger.
 
mtl mile end

mtl mile end

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I can't say I have a problem with casinos not allowing Phil Ivey to walk in and grab millions of dollars whenever he feels like it because the deck is imperfect and the dealer agreeable.

The issue is, this is exactly what they did do. Then sued him over the losses. I'm curious at what point they figured out they got played. Any competent staff member should have had all flags raised.




Absolutely not, although I would concede that this is not quite the issue. Ivey brought in his own cards that he knew had a defect. This did not happen. See below.This changes things a bit, but I still have trouble seeing it as cheating. It's undeniably a dick move, but considering the casino threw away their house cards and didnt mind the dealer turning them, so I really just see it as an updated rulebook.

You and your friends are hanging out and wanting to play poker. You have a brand new pack of cards, but your friend convinces the group to use his old ones because they will shuffle better.

Can you really call your friend a cheater because he knows the wear patterns? You had every oppertunity to back out of the clearly shady situation, but instead agreed to it. Yup, he's cheating. Nope I will never play with him again. Yup I know people that would inflict physical pain on him if they were at the table.

Its a dick move, its angle shooting, but I can't call it cheating.
I meant that question to be rhetorical.




I'm not an angel, if this happens to me there is a 99% chance I will use it to my advantage. Yup, that's cheating. Present this scenario at the next live table you're at. If it's at a card room, you might want to refrain from answering honestly yourself.

Now let me ask you a question, if it turns out that the cards the casino was normally using had a similar defect, do you think they would repay everybody who played with those cards? At best the spotter and their table might get a refund in hopes it doesnt blow up any bigger. They were using their cards, see below.
It is not a defect. see below

Ivey did not bring his own cards to a casino! If he did, I think criminal charges would be in order. As per the Washington Post: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...0-million-in-winnings/?utm_term=.6e273b7462ea

I initially thought that Ivey had noticed an imperfection along the edge of full bleed decks. It was much simpler than that. Ivey and partner "asked for a specific brand of playing cards with a distinct white-circle pattern on the back". The cards requested were probably Gemaco brand. They are excellent quality cards and usually have a "Full Bleed" back, that is, no white border. The long sides of these cards are not the same, left and right, on each card. He specifically requested that the 7-9's of the decks be rotated 180 degrees relative to the other cards and shuffled by machine so that their positions (long side wise) wouldn't change. All this was done for him by the dealer as favours to a high roller's "superstition" . At this point, Ivey could identify the most valuable cards (7-9) from the back. At this point, the casinos and their dealers were acting in a gullible manner and were being taken advantage of by a cheat, not an angle IMO. When the house wanted to change the decks, Ivey requested that the "lucky" decks remain in play. His bet sizing started small and increased to the maximum until the house insisted on the changing of the decks, that's when he quit.

If the house is gullible and greedy enough to be taken advantage of in this way, you can argue liability, but I don't think that changes the fact that it's cheating.
 
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VictorOd

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I don't know much about that possible cheating story, we all can only make guesses.
But today among other news I've read that Ivey is going to play big MTTs in 2018 again. Looking forward for that, I'll watch his plays with pleasure.
 
paipingprung

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I don’t like Phil Ivey, because I envy him so much.
You choose to run a gambling establishment, be the house, it’s your responsibility to make sure your smarter than the gambler. It’s your responsibility to have a level of security that protects the equipment you use from a keen gambler finding an edge.
If the gambler has outsmarted your casino, and you catch him after you have paid off his legal bets, to bad, hey you caught him and can stop it from happening in the future, but eat your lack of intelligence.
It’s utterly absurd that any human being would rule in favor of the casino. It sets a prescedence in the future, the customer outsmarted us, we pay a lot of taxes, give us our money back. It’s dangerous and bad for gambling.
 
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I don’t like Phil Ivey, because I envy him so much.
You choose to run a gambling establishment, be the house, it’s your responsibility to make sure your smarter than the gambler. It’s your responsibility to have a level of security that protects the equipment you use from a keen gambler finding an edge.
If the gambler has outsmarted your casino, and you catch him after you have paid off his legal bets, to bad, hey you caught him and can stop it from happening in the future, but eat your lack of intelligence.
It’s utterly absurd that any human being would rule in favor of the casino. It sets a prescedence in the future, the customer outsmarted us, we pay a lot of taxes, give us our money back. It’s dangerous and bad for gambling.
Poor Ivey. the multi millionaire robbed of a few million so that 30 staff members can feed their children and afford the rent next month. :( POOR IVEY ;-;
 
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On a side note, I used shavers 30 years ago to cheat slot machines, got caught and banned, but they couldn't arrest me.
 
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Yup, anytime you can beat them, beat them.
Well us brits will beat him to a pulp right back I tell you straight. He can go back to USA and bankrupt his own casinos. who he thinks he is to 'beat us' little scumbag he is.
 
paipingprung

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Well us brits will beat him to a pulp right back I tell you straight. He can go back to USA and bankrupt his own casinos. who he thinks he is to 'beat us' little scumbag he is.

He beat the borgata in atlantic city too, he grew up poor 35 miles from atlantic city, like most of us, he got up from the poker tables at tropicana and gambled elsewhere in the casino, he is a hero to us degent gamblers that he could go back to ac 25 years later and beat the borgata.
 
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He beat the borgata in atlantic city too, he grew up poor 35 miles from atlantic city, like most of us, he got up from the poker tables at tropicana and gambled elsewhere in the casino, he is a hero to us degent gamblers that he could go back to ac 25 years later and beat the borgata.
Do you know what it means to the staff of the poker room and their career and livelihood what he does? It harms everyone involved. Even other gamblers (say they win a sports bet or big roulette gamble on black 14 etc) they may not be able to be paid back due to literal bankruptcy of the casino that night alone. Ivey drains them dry so suddenly and brutally by betting huge with unfair advantage and should go to hell and stay there.

He is brilliant at poker and poker is not going to bankrupt anyone who doesn't deserve it for their bad bankroll management. The casino in no way deserved what he did to them and the staff have children to feed so frankly if he wants to make UK in any way economically damaged in the millions figure level he can go back to his hometown and have the casinos there beat him in the alley in the back.

And don't think I wouldn't tell Ivey this to his face. He is as bankrupt morally as he is rich financially. Just look which poker room he stood for in his career's origins. that's right, full tilt.
 
paipingprung

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That's a silly argument.
If I own a company and make bad business decisions, my employees could suffer because I have to cut salary to make up for my bad decisions.
The casinos made bad decisions by agreeing to the terms set forth by Ivey in emails prior to gambling.
Why? Because they were absolutely sure they were secure by giving him what he wanted.
They bet on themselves and lost, that's gambling.
This is a horrible decision by the courts.
 
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anthonydalvaro

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I believe it is ridiculous that the casinos would agree to the terms he requested anyway. I mean... a card shuffler?:sheep: I agree with most of you, Ivey should receive the money he won at the tables, because the casinos agreed to the terms. They should have known something was up when he asked for a card shuffler. I suppose when the casinos are dealing with a top poker pro like Ivey, they are more inclined to grant such requests. I know if I asked for a card shuffler they would probably laugh at me. Anyway, the casinos are going to do what they can to make as much money as possible, and approximately 10 M was sure to open their eyes. Bad call for the courts.:jd4:
 
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I believe it is ridiculous that the casinos would agree to the terms he requested anyway. I mean... a card shuffler?:sheep: I agree with most of you, Ivey should receive the money he won at the tables, because the casinos agreed to the terms. They should have known something was up when he asked for a card shuffler. I suppose when the casinos are dealing with a top poker pro like Ivey, they are more inclined to grant such requests. I know if I asked for a card shuffler they would probably laugh at me. Anyway, the casinos are going to do what they can to make as much money as possible, and approximately 10 M was sure to open their eyes. Bad call for the courts.:jd4:

That's a silly argument.
If I own a company and make bad business decisions, my employees could suffer because I have to cut salary to make up for my bad decisions.
The casinos made bad decisions by agreeing to the terms set forth by Ivey in emails prior to gambling.
Why? Because they were absolutely sure they were secure by giving him what he wanted.
They bet on themselves and lost, that's gambling.
This is a horrible decision by the courts.

Law is about justice and right vs wrong. It's not about survival of the fittest or strong vs weak.

If you think being more cunning or smarter makes it ok to cheat people out of hard earned cash and to totally destroy lives then you are clearly not fit to ever be in law enforcement at any level and it is no wonder you think this verdict of law was wrong.

This judgement was very sound. It is about doing the right thing, not the Darwinist thing.
 
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sucks he had to pay it back but i guess u run the risk when your playing those type of games and doing these tactics to win. kinda same as card counting, i dont mind if people win but if its discovered then pay it back
 
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sucks he had to pay it back but i guess u run the risk when your playing those type of games and doing these tactics to win. kinda same as card counting, i dont mind if people win but if its discovered then pay it back
If you were a member of staff at that casino or even the owner of it, would you think it sucked that he had to pay it back?

He wasn't some lucky guy, he was using a prearranged dealer, abusing his reputation as a well respected gambling figure and running a medium-size casino chain dry of every last penny. Is this somehow reasonable to you?
 
ScottieDuncan

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It's a crock. They should pay him.
 
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It's a crock. They should pay him.

Have you had any experience in any law-enforcement industry/profession?

I notice all the people defending Ivey have little comprehension of what justice really is and also have even less objectivity to put themselves in the casino staff's shoes.
 
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anthonydalvaro

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I think the reason that most people want Ivey to recieve his money is because the casino AGREED to every one of his requests. That's the kicker. If anything, they should have fired that Asian dealer.
 
mtl mile end

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I think the reason that most people want Ivey to recieve his money is because the casino AGREED to every one of his requests. That's the kicker. If anything, they should have fired that Asian dealer.

What Asian dealer? I realize baccarat is popular with Asians and therefore many of the dealers must be Asian, but I've not heard anything about the ethnicity of the dealer. As well, since this occurred over many hours, if not days (4 days?) I doubt the same dealer was there for the whole of the session(s).

EDIT*
The four day thing was Borgata in AC. I don't know the timing of the UK session, but it surely was longer than one dealer's turn at the table.
 
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