Is the card shuffling in online poker truly random?

Shells

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puzzlefish

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Can't wait to see proof that this is actually CoinPoker's RNG and not an alternate RNG. I think RNG dealing of cards is random, but dealing of outcomes is not (i.e. selection of the order of winning players is pre-determined). This is probably the simplest rig that is also sufficiently concealed that it will not be detected easily. In essence if players can figure out pre-flop who wins versus who for the upcoming board, then they have the advantage for betting purposes.
 
Poker_Mike

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puzzlefish said:
Can't wait to see proof that this is actually CoinPoker's RNG and not an alternate RNG. I think RNG dealing of cards is random, but dealing of outcomes is not (i.e. selection of the order of winning players is pre-determined). This is probably the simplest rig that is also sufficiently concealed that it will not be detected easily. In essence if players can figure out pre-flop who wins versus who for the upcoming board, then they have the advantage for betting purposes.
Click to expand...


How can they prove that the RNG they make public is the one that they use?

Thanks.
 
Joco413

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puzzlefish said:
Can't wait to see proof that this is actually CoinPoker's RNG and not an alternate RNG. I think RNG dealing of cards is random, but dealing of outcomes is not (i.e. selection of the order of winning players is pre-determined). This is probably the simplest rig that is also sufficiently concealed that it will not be detected easily. In essence if players can figure out pre-flop who wins versus who for the upcoming board, then they have the advantage for betting purposes.
Click to expand...


How can you figure something like that out? You win some and others win some too. Noone can continuously win everything.
 
puzzlefish

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puzzlefish

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Joco413 said:
How can you figure something like that out? You win some and others win some too. Noone can continuously win everything.
Click to expand...
It's hard to explain. I am doing my best right now and am getting close with 888. Stars is similar. It's not a matter of winning some and others winning some. It is about the timing - when someone wins something against someone else. I am finding a lot of hints and patterns from previous hands that are correctly predicting when other players win or lose against myself and against other players. It's like poker because the end result is that the winner has the best hand.. but the difference is that certain players who notice the patterns can exploit them to optimize betting in certain situations only. It is not a situation where one person can always win, but in the right circumstances they can get enough information about other players to make profitable plays next regardless of what hands they are dealt, because they know whether they will win or lose against others.
 
sidenotch

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Nicely said..."remaining cards after flop" can certainly be manipulated...

puzzlefish said:
Can't wait to see proof that this is actually CoinPoker's RNG and not an alternate RNG. I think RNG dealing of cards is random, but dealing of outcomes is not (i.e. selection of the order of winning players is pre-determined). This is probably the simplest rig that is also sufficiently concealed that it will not be detected easily. In essence if players can figure out pre-flop who wins versus who for the upcoming board, then they have the advantage for betting purposes.
Click to expand...
After the flop, the "site" knows who has what cards and which player(s) is playing the hand and CERTAINLY knows what cards are "remaining", so I agree with the statement that the "order" and such of the winners can CERTAINLY be manipulated...easy peasy for a decent programmer, right?
"a site is only as good as the people who PRE program it"
--sidenotch--
 
sidenotch

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EXACTLY!!>>>THANKS for the video, you rock!

joeisi said:
Here is a video from Pokerstars from a few years a back explaining their system.


Interesting watch if you liked the article linked above. They mention in it just like the article that a fully computerized system cannot produce a truly random number.


https://www.pokerstars.com/en/tv/channels/2014/10/inside-pokerstars---episode-3.shtml
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Exactly my point I have been trying to state concerning the "randomness" of a PRE PROGRAMMED site! If it's "pre" programmed, then how can it possibly be "random"? :) Oh, it CAN'T be! Happy Holidays and keep on playin' those aces online...there's 10 per deck>>>(joking, so please, people out there, don't ATTACK me for that remark)
 
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puzzlefish

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Poker_Mike said:
How can they prove that the RNG they make public is the one that they use?

Thanks.
Click to expand...
That's a good question. Maybe someone with programming knowledge could suggest a way. I imagine there should be some kind of checksum value for the RNG that can be compared to what is running live on their servers?
 
rafa77777

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I think by chance. Otherwise, lost the meaning of the game ..
 
playinggameswithu

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CoinPoker is going to collapse soon. A lot of poker conspiracy theorist ITT
 
finaltable1

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That's what all poker sites must do!
I have no answer to my question for years...

- In live poker game the dealer shuffles cards and the sequence of the cards remains in the same order after shuffling process is over, until next shuffling process starts.

BUT

- What happens in online poker shuffling process?
a) The shuffling process is over at start of the hand and cards are located in some sequence for flop-turn-river?
or
b) The shuffling process continues for turn and river cards?

In both cases A) or B) more questions rise up.
 
Cok1973

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i think that every poker room must have RNG with open code
 
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I think it's fairly unlikely larger sites actually blatantly rigging microstakes card draws to induce action or to give certain people the win.

With that said it's also very hard to make something truly random and I would be interested in how different sites look to resolve this issue.
 
puzzlefish

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There is no rigging of one stake level and not another. It all works the same way on all levels.
 
LavaStorm

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shells_bells_53 said:
The code for any poker site’s RNG has remained top secret, leading many to wonder whether the cards are really dealt in a random fashion. CoinPoker, a cryptocurrency-based online poker site, is releasing the source code for the random number generator so you can see for yourself. Have you ever doubted the RNG on any online poker site?

Is Online Poker Really Random? Crypto Site Opens Source Code, Offers Reward to Test Shuffling RNG
Click to expand...


When i started playing online poker that was my main question. A friend of mine told me that cards are always mixed because if some cheating was taking place in the site thay could close it permanently so i guess there is some online security.. isnt it?
 
Jilty

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A guy that is running a local tournament where I live said that about 10 years ago he was playing on stars (I think) and he was up early in the morning around 3-4am to feed the baby so he'd get online and do the grind multi-task when all the russians got on (after a few drinks maybe?), anyway he said after he got up about 4k that at times the river card would pause and wait a an unnatural amount of time (compared to all the previous run outs) and then their 1-2-3-4 outer was hit. I'm not sure of the frequency but he said he experienced a distinct change, particularly in the cards lagging as before they hadn't. Conspiracy?

By law these companies should have to have an open source code and a check every week to see if they're maintaining it, even a portal access (security?) to see if it's still the same code.

On the topic of it being impossible to have a truly 'random deck' experience coded into something, how does a RNG work or /roll in a program?
 
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