Borgata Suing Phil Ivey for $9.6 Million: Claims Cheating at Baccarat Table

Didnt see this posted,just read it on twitter,here is the link.

http://www.cardplayer.com/poker-news/17088-borgata-casino-sues-phil-ivey-for-9-6-million-says-poker-pro-cheated

Link doesn't work for me, but as I understand he was exploiting a flaw in the cards Borgata was using

Sue the manufacturer, fire the dealer, whatever. Don't understand how they can 'sue' Ivey lol

Wow, this is now the second time that Ivey has been embroiled in legal proceedings for "edge sorting" at the baccarat table.

I hope this link works:

http://www.cardplayer.com/poker-new...l-ivey-for-9-6-million-says-poker-pro-cheated

This is just another example of a casino not looking close enough at the facts! One thing interesting about this lawsuit is that borgata is also suing gemaco who makes the cards!!! Now if somehow they can connect gemaco to ivey in an elaborate scheme as in they were working together (which is highly unlikely) then obviously that would be cheating, But anything short of that is the casinos fault! I really cant see this lawsuit sticking on ivey but perhaps they may have a strong case against gemaco! Definitely will be something to pay attention to in the coming monthes and years for things to develope!

Wow, this is now the second time that Ivey has been embroiled in legal proceedings for "edge sorting" at the Baccarat table.

I hope this link works:

Click to expand...

thank you yes this link works,dont kknow what happened with the link I posted.

God knows what really happened .. maybe the casino to cut costs does not change the cards very often and spent .. that for a professional player cards is an advantage because if you remember the brand comes with several letters , shows an extra edge. and I do not think it was cheating, this advantage that edge any more .. that gives the casino.

This was the first story on my homepage when I opened IE a few minutes ago. Here's a link to the AP article with a few more details CardPlayer article.
http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/borgata-casino-lawsuit-gambler-cheated-won-96m-23296389

I don't think the casino really has that much of a case. Then again, that's just my opinion as a layperson. I'm sure the casino has a team of lawyers telling them that they have a very winnable case against Ivey.

If the casino does happen to win, I must say that I, for one, will not feel the least bit sorry for Phil. I know how much you all love Phil Ivey. But according to the above article, he hit Borgata four times between April and October of 2012. You might recall that it was in August of the same year he hit Crockford's for twelve million. That's just greedy. And there is no telling whether or not he's pulled this off at any other casinos, as many casinos use similarly designed cards that are also capable of being sorted.

More power to him if he wins this case and his case against Crockford's. But I can't be too sympathetic if he doesn't.

just want to know how both sides want to end this case.
personally, Phil Ivey is just using the tells from Casino. Therefore he gained extra edge and turned that edge into profit.
but did not see any reason Casino would put this into a "Cheating"?

BadB420 said:

This is just another example of a casino not looking close enough at the facts! One thing interesting about this lawsuit is that borgata is also suing gemaco who makes the cards!!! Now if somehow they can connect gemaco to ivey in an elaborate scheme as in they were working together (which is highly unlikely) then obviously that would be cheating, But anything short of that is the casinos fault! I really cant see this lawsuit sticking on ivey but perhaps they may have a strong case against gemaco! Definitely will be something to pay attention to in the coming monthes and years for things to develope!

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I agree with this. If he just noticed the edging on the cards on his own, I can't possibly see how he's at fault. Go ahead and sue the card company, but the player who was smart enough to use his powers of observation to notice the flaw? Come on. Unless, as you say, he was in cahoots w/ the card company, but I highly doubt that. The casino should have some quality control process in place with respect to the integrity of their own cards. If they don't, that's on them. Too bad, Borgata.

If he took advantage of a flaw in cards that's tough luck. Casino's really will do anything not to pay it seems

juiceeQ said:

I agree with this. If he just noticed the edging on the cards on his own, I can't possibly see how he's at fault. Go ahead and sue the card company, but the player who was smart enough to use his powers of observation to notice the flaw? Come on. Unless, as you say, he was in cahoots w/ the card company, but I highly doubt that. The casino should have some quality control process in place with respect to the integrity of their own cards. If they don't, that's on them. Too bad, Borgata.

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I disagree since Ivey was having certain cards turned (to see the marked edges) claiming that it was for luck and then demanding that they only be shuffled via machine (agin for "luck") so the edges never flipped. He was going way beyond noticing a problem and exploiting it. He was actively participating to exploit the edge (pun intended).

WVHillbilly said:

I disagree since Ivey was having certain cards turned (to see the marked edges) claiming that it was for luck and then demanding that they only be shuffled via machine (agin for "luck") so the edges never flipped. He was going way beyond noticing a problem and exploiting it. He was actively participating to exploit the edge (pun intended).

Click to expand...

But the casino cannot punish a player for taking advantage of their mistake in the quality process of their cards.

WVHillbilly said:

I disagree since Ivey was having certain cards turned (to see the marked edges) claiming that it was for luck and then demanding that they only be shuffled via machine (agin for "luck") so the edges never flipped. He was going way beyond noticing a problem and exploiting it. He was actively participating to exploit the edge (pun intended).

Click to expand...

Hmmm...I suppose that is different, but still, I think the casino should be responsible for the cards it uses.

Being in the legal field I can tell you.....when you file a suit you sue EVERYONE and their mother if you think there is any connection. From that point you sort out who really belongs as the defendant. Just b/c the Borgata sued the card company too doesn't mean Phil is connected to the card manufacturer. It also doesn't mean he isn't. That would be an interesting twist. However, I doubt that. I think it's the casino just covering all the bases.

That being said....honestly, I don't think the casino has a case. Their negligence in reviewing the equipment they use is no fault of Ivey's. And if they took deliver of the cards and used the cards....then they are saying the cards were ok. Ivey saw an advantage and took it. I don't blame him and I don't call it cheating. Pay that man his money!!

2nd time he's pulled this off, the uk casino didn't pay him though and he's suing them lol.

Phil Ivey Jr.

Has everyone seen the news on one of the greatest poker players alive? Mr. Phil Ivey is accused of cheating the Borgata out of ~ 9.6 million dollars in Baccarat. I am posting a link to one of the story's below. Remember....he is innocent until proven guilty.

There is another thread already posted about this.

at least , no for now.
there is no evidence show any link between phil ivey and cards manufacture. Unless it is, I will change my choice to YES
if that is not innocent, reading tells, that is cheating as well.

Yeah I just read it. I don't see how they will win the lawsuit. All he really did is observe what was happening, and then bet accordingly. I think he played within the rules. What did the casino expect, he was supposed to tell the casino about the fault in the cards, and O yeah by the way don't use the automatic shuffler! LOL

On the surface, this would seem to be a case of the casino acting like a sore loser. However - and I don't know this to be the case, it is just speculation - perhaps there are gaming rules that absolve the casino if defects in equipment result in big losses for them. For example, if a slot machine had a defect where it was paying out jackpot after jackpot, the casino might be protected from liability.

Similarly, gaming rules might also prevent players from benefiting from defects if it can be proven that they knew of the defect and failed to report it.

Just a couple of thoughts....

Almost got away with it...

why would ivey admitt there was a flaw oh man thats alot of $$$$$

Will be interested to hear more about this - as it stands, it sounds like almost a carbon copy of the Crockfords incident except that in that case, Ivey is suing them for his money.

I take that to mean that the Borgata actually paid him on the night, as opposed to Crockfords which withheld his winnings. As low as it was, I could at least understand what Crockfords was doing him (they were basically trying to freeroll Ivey, hoping he'd lose despite advantage playing).

For someone working in casino security it should be pretty easy to spot someone who's edge sorting. Especially in a case like this where they're having a member of the casino staff turn specific cards for them and keep them turned the right way. I gather it was a lesser-known technique back in the 2000s... but we're talking about 2012 here, a major casino like the Borgata should have been aware.

I'm not a lawyer, but IMO once they see him turning cards and they let him keep playing, and especially when they've paid him afterwards, they've made their bed. It's something that's easily prevented even with "defective" cards by just including a turn in the shuffle procedure. So I'm struggling to see how the casino gets to blame anyone other than themselves. One assumes the casino approved the card design before Gemaco printed them, so they might even have a hard time trying to sue the printer...

If Ivey was willingly and actively deceiving the casino by making sure he could see the defects on the edge of certain cards I dont see it as cheating. He didnt mark the cards or counterfeit chips for survival in a tourney or steal something. I feel like responsibility falls on the casino. Its their job to make the game fair, not Ivey, and he wasnt colluding with a partner to defraud anyone. The house always has an edge. Borgata made 120 million in 2013, I think they can take a hit once in a while. I am not sticking up for him cause I like the guy, far from it, ever since black friday Ivey is a douchebag in my eyes.

Take a look at our article on the subject: https://www.cardschat.com/news/phil-ivey-embroiled-second-alleged-cheating-case-now-borgata-2529