tracker defense!!

OnyxPanther

OnyxPanther

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I will be petitioning the the poker providers as of this evening to try and get measures implemented that combat againts poker trackers as they provide an unfair advantage. A computer databank with every move of a player being taken into account at every given moment constitutes an unfair advantage in my opinion unless those moves are ones personal moves and that persons moves alone! This is because those without access to such programs are not able to compile and correspond data in the same mass and manner. Trackers do provide an advantage and are good for analysis of personal play but what is not being taken into account is the fact that poker IS NOT PERSONAL game. Thats solitaire if you are interested.

Grounds for the petition are going to be based on this unfair advantage.

In case that is not enough to gain the requested security measures against illegal and legal poker trackers I will also be adding these for evidentiary support.

1.) In accordance to (Full Tilt Terms&Conditions EULA,
4.2. You acknowledge that you have no right to have access to the Software in source code form or in unlocked coding or with comments.)

Poker Trackers cannot intake data for analysis or display information inside the FullTilt poker tables (I.E. HUD's) without violationg this clause due to the nature that programs transmit data in code and code interacts with code.

2.) (10.3. EXTERNAL PLAYER ASSISTANCE PROGRAMS (EPAs)

We prohibit the use of external player assistance programs (EPA programs) which are designed to provide an "unfair advantage" to players. EPA programs include computer software (other than the game client provided by us), and non-software-based databases or profiles (e.g., web sites and subscription services). In this clause 10.3. an "unfair advantage" is gained where a player accesses or compiles information on other players beyond that which the player has personally observed through the player's own game play.)

While acknowledging the unfair advantage gained with certain poker trackers that 'data mine' it leaves room for trackers using personal games. It is not taking into account that human nature does not allow for compilation and recollection of "every and all" moves through out the history of all hands they have played. While this is arguable; you must consider the fact that computer programs can calculate on an exponential factor faster than humans with more variabes on the same accord. Now, take a poker players tracker away and ask him how many times his opponent has 3bet from his position. Was he right? odds are no yet with the track he knows exactly and by means of EXTERNAL PROGRAM ASSISTANCE he has more accurate information to make a decision with against somone that would most likely be innacurate at telling how many 3bets without the program. This proves unfair advantage.

It is a simple idea that I am proposing that shouldn't be too out of the way for the poker providers so I hope to see it implemented. The idea is that they provide us with an option to change our ingame nickname ONCE every 3 months to ensure that whatever trackers are present are a. not compiling huge histories on 1 nickname leading to complete domination of that player and b. to ensure that the history sharing issue is being countermeasured effectively.
 
BelgoSuisse

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  1. You don't understand how HEM and PT3 display the HUD. They most certainly don't need access to the poker rooms code for that
  2. Name changes are allowed on party poker. It makes illegal data mining more profitable, not less.
 
TPC

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I will be petitioning the the poker providers as of this evening to try and get measures implemented that combat againts poker trackers as they provide an unfair advantage. A computer databank with every move of a player being taken into account at every given moment constitutes an unfair advantage in my opinion unless those moves are ones personal moves and that persons moves alone! This is because those without access to such programs are not able to compile and correspond data in the same mass and manner. Trackers do provide an advantage and are good for analysis of personal play but what is not being taken into account is the fact that poker IS NOT PERSONAL game. Thats solitaire if you are interested.

Anyone can use tracking software, how is that an unfair advantage?

Grounds for the petition are going to be based on this unfair advantage.

Again, you're off to a bad start. Anyone can use the software, there is nothing unfair about the advantage of a hud.

In case that is not enough to gain the requested security measures against illegal and legal poker trackers I will also be adding these for evidentiary support.

Lol, I kinda agree the ones that data mine every hand are BS, but again, we all have access to that data. PTR for example has actually uncovered security issue with UB, AP and now the Cake Network.

1.) In accordance to (Full Tilt Terms&Conditions EULA,
4.2. You acknowledge that you have no right to have access to the Software in source code form or in unlocked coding or with comments.)

Poker Trackers cannot intake data for analysis or display information inside the FullTilt poker tables (I.E. HUD's) without violationg this clause due to the nature that programs transmit data in code and code interacts with code.

If you are going to be all pissed off against poker trackers and huds, you should at least understand how they work. This isn't how PT3 or HEM works. Neither of the programs interact with the clients software. All PT3 and HEM does is read the Hand Histories and displays the data in various statistical manors.

The HUD itself doesn't interact with the client software, it's a separate program that is set to run on top of the client software. When someone installs a HUD, their client software is never altered.

2.) (10.3. EXTERNAL PLAYER ASSISTANCE PROGRAMS (EPAs)

We prohibit the use of external player assistance programs (EPA programs) which are designed to provide an "unfair advantage" to players. EPA programs include computer software (other than the game client provided by us), and non-software-based databases or profiles (e.g., web sites and subscription services). In this clause 10.3. an "unfair advantage" is gained where a player accesses or compiles information on other players beyond that which the player has personally observed through the player's own game play.)

While acknowledging the unfair advantage gained with certain poker trackers that 'data mine' it leaves room for trackers using personal games. It is not taking into account that human nature does not allow for compilation and recollection of "every and all" moves through out the history of all hands they have played. While this is arguable; you must consider the fact that computer programs can calculate on an exponential factor faster than humans with more variabes on the same accord. Now, take a poker players tracker away and ask him how many times his opponent has 3bet from his position. Was he right? Odds are no yet with the track he knows exactly and by means of EXTERNAL PROGRAM ASSISTANCE he has more accurate information to make a decision with against somone that would most likely be innacurate at telling how many 3bets without the program. This proves unfair advantage.

The data mine part some of the websites have, I'm kinda against. But again, we all have access to it.

However, what this is saying about EPA's. It's talking about programs that tell you how to play in real time. Basically making you a bot. It's taking the human element out of the game. Which is an unfair advantage. If we all played like bots, we would just trade money back and forth. The only real winner would be the rake.

Your argument that Humans can't recall every single action is flawed. There are people with minds capable of doing this. Online with screen names and different avatars, I find it difficult to recall certain players until I have a lot of interaction with them. Live, when I have a face to look at, I can recall hands and situations I've played with people years before. It just depends on how your mind works. Also, while playing live, you have way more time to make decisions. Playing online, you don't have much time to do math where needed, and base decisions on reads. This is also where my HUD comes in, once I've done the math and assigned a range, I'm now looking at stats to see if I can find a fold, a call or a raise based on the current situation.

The people against HUDs think a HUD tells you what to do. It doesn't, and most people that have HUDs don't even know how to use them. You still have to learn and understand what the data you are looking at means.

It is a simple idea that I am proposing that shouldn't be too out of the way for the poker providers so I hope to see it implemented. The idea is that they provide us with an option to change our ingame nickname ONCE every 3 months to ensure that whatever trackers are present are a. not compiling huge histories on 1 nickname leading to complete domination of that player and b. to ensure that the history sharing issue is being countermeasured effectively.

No poker site will ever get rid of Poker Trackers. The majority of players are using them and if they were banned, people wouldn't play.

So quit bitching and pony up the $100 or whatever and buy PT3 or HEM. Use it to analyze your play and help aid you in poker decisions on the table.

This thread almost needs to go to the rigtard thread.
 
ben_rhyno

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Anyone can use tracking software, how is that an unfair advantage?



Again, you're off to a bad start. Anyone can use the software, there is nothing unfair about the advantage of a hud.



Lol, I kinda agree the ones that data mine every hand are BS, but again, we all have access to that data. PTR for example has actually uncovered security issue with Ultimatebet, Absolute Poker and now the Cake Network.



If you are going to be all pissed off against poker trackers and huds, you should at least understand how they work. This isn't how PT3 or HEM works. Neither of the programs interact with the clients software. All PT3 and HEM does is read the Hand Histories and displays the data in various statistical manors.

The HUD itself doesn't interact with the client software, it's a separate program that is set to run on top of the client software. When someone installs a HUD, their client software is never altered.



The data mine part some of the websites have, I'm kinda against. But again, we all have access to it.

However, what this is saying about EPA's. It's talking about programs that tell you how to play in real time. Basically making you a bot. It's taking the human element out of the game. Which is an unfair advantage. If we all played like bots, we would just trade money back and forth. The only real winner would be the rake.

Your argument that Humans can't recall every single action is flawed. There are people with minds capable of doing this. Online with screen names and different avatars, I find it difficult to recall certain players until I have a lot of interaction with them. Live, when I have a face to look at, I can recall hands and situations I've played with people years before. It just depends on how your mind works. Also, while playing live, you have way more time to make decisions. Playing online, you don't have much time to do math where needed, and base decisions on reads. This is also where my HUD comes in, once I've done the math and assigned a range, I'm now looking at stats to see if I can find a fold, a call or a raise based on the current situation.

The people against HUDs think a HUD tells you what to do. It doesn't, and most people that have HUDs don't even know how to use them. You still have to learn and understand what the data you are looking at means.



No poker site will ever get rid of Poker Trackers. The majority of players are using them and if they were banned, people wouldn't play.

So quit bitching and pony up the $100 or whatever and buy PT3 or HEM. Use it to analyze your play and help aid you in poker decisions on the table.

This thread almost needs to go to the rigtard thread.
This^

Also, I can't see you getting much help here, on a poker forum where a lot of people use the software
 
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WVHillbilly

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Good luck with your petition. I'm sure no losing player has ever complained about people using tracking software in the past so you're really likely to get somewhere with this.
 
BelgoSuisse

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Yeah, I PTR'ed OP. Well, first of all, you have something like 23 hands tracked on FT and 500 on pokerstars, so you should really not worry people using advanced stats against you.

Also, when you're looser than 97% of the population at 25nl, nobody needs a tracking program to know that you're a fish.

Try to learn this game instead of making up excuses for your losses. Seriously.
 
OnyxPanther

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Look Belgo. I don't fear your H.U.D. using A.S.S. or anyone else that needs its or wants it because I variate my play. As far as "making up excuses" goes, well you can shove that chip right up your raisse buddy. I take full responsibility for my play. And since you think I am making excuse I am going to tell you WHY I wrote this and sent petitions. I like arguing and debating disputable things to try to offer a fresh opinion to those who use them or at least a reminder that they should be thinking about it.
So 4K you buddy for the rest of the month.


Thanx Rhyno, I really had no idea how they worked.. just did enough reading to find out that they track too many things that im not interested in caring about.. I dont care how many times somebody went 3bet, whatever that is lol
 
WVHillbilly

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Look Belgo. I don't fear your H.U.D. using A.S.S. or anyone else that needs its or wants it because I variate my play. As far as "making up excuses" goes, well you can shove that chip right up your raisse buddy. I take full responsibility for my play. And since you think I am making excuse I am going to tell you WHY I wrote this and sent petitions. I like arguing and debating disputable things to try to offer a fresh opinion to those who use them or at least a reminder that they should be thinking about it.
So 4K you buddy for the rest of the month.


Thanx Rhyno, I really had no idea how they worked.. just did enough reading to find out that they track too many things that im not interested in caring about.. I dont care how many times somebody went 3bet, whatever that is lol

So you admit to being a troll? Much like your initial deposit, you won't last long.
 
B

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you could start a petition to allow for riding unicorns in Time Square, you might have the same success with that one!
 
OnyxPanther

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what are you talking about WV... are getting defensive too? So everyone with H.U.D. thinks I am assaulting them with this post? This forum is turning out to be not so good for trying to start a discussion. which is what a forum is for. You guys act like I slapped your mother or something, WTF.

Its whatever tho.

I would again like to thank Rhyno for actually contributing instead of making assumptions and getting bent out of shape like I am attacking there personal use of the program. I am just arbitrating the genral idea.
 
B

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The problem with trying to ban "tracking programs" is that we all have access to our own hand histories and people could just manually parse the data on their own.

There's really no way to prevent everyone that you play with from knowing that you like to 3-bet a lot or that you showdown with bad hands all the time unless you deny access to players' own hand histories.

Heck, even then people can take notes on you and observe your play at the table and keep track of important hands.

To make a long story short, when you sit down at a table you're going to give off information. Whether or not that information gets saved in hand histories, notes, trackers, whatever...it's going to be out there. The only thing you can do about it is improve your game.
 
Tammy

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Onyx, you're the only one I see in this thread getting "bent out of shape". You're the only calling names, etc. If you want a debate, fine. But keep it civil if you wish to continue.
 
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OnyxPanther

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THE POKERSITES SHOULD JUST DO US ALL A FAVOR AND ADVANCE THE SOFTWARE TO WHERE IT PROVIDES US ALL WITH IN DEPTH INFORMATION IN MY OPINION AND CUT THAT EXTRA 100 A YEAR OUT FOR THOSE OTHER COMPANIES.

THE THE poker sites WOULD REALLY BE LIVING UP TO TEACHING US HOW TO PLAY BETTER.

CAN WE ALL BAN TOGETHER ON THIS AND PETITION THE WEBSITES?
 
Debi

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You have avoided answering the most important question asked -

Since everyone can use it if they choose to then how is it an unfair advantage?

Answer that question before going any further - and don't turn into a troll cause I have an itchy hammer.

Oh - and typing in all caps violates forum rules so don't do it again.
 
dj11

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I have an absolutely perfect PHOTOGRAPHIC memory, and a PHD in Probability Statistics.

Should I also be banned?

Not true, but should someone who does possess those qualities be banned?
 
OnyxPanther

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Yeah, I PTR'ed OP. Well, first of all, you have something like 23 hands tracked on FT and 500 on pokerstars, so you should really not worry people using advanced stats against you.

Also, when you're looser than 97% of the population at 25nl, nobody needs a tracking program to know that you're a fish.

Try to learn this game instead of making up excuses for your losses. Seriously.

does it look like I got bent out of shape until I read the last line in his post? I know how to play and I dont make excuses. Yes saying that about me pissed me off because he made an assumption about me and my play off of what he even said was not enough information for anything. So yeah he can 4k off. I should have just sent it to his pm and not posted in the forum now that i look at it but I didnt.

Anyways Im calm now. If you dont see me reply back to anything its because I almost out of post for the day... Cant wait to break the limit so I can post when the post gets going back and forth.
 
WVHillbilly

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THE POKERSITES SHOULD JUST DO US ALL A FAVOR AND ADVANCE THE SOFTWARE TO WHERE IT PROVIDES US ALL WITH IN DEPTH INFORMATION IN MY OPINION AND CUT THAT EXTRA 100 A YEAR OUT FOR THOSE OTHER COMPANIES.

THE THE POKER SITES WOULD REALLY BE LIVING UP TO TEACHING US HOW TO PLAY BETTER.

CAN WE ALL BAN TOGETHER ON THIS AND PETITION THE WEBSITES?

Freudian???
 
Tammy

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That last line of Belgo's post I think was actually an attempt as genuine advice. We could all stand to do better by learning more about the game, and constantly striving to acheive more (as with all things in life). What you won't have is an ability to post here at all if you are telling people to "4k off" while doing it, comprende?
 
WVHillbilly

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Why oh why was my post deleted? He said it not me! :(
 
Debi

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You have avoided answering the most important question asked -

Since everyone can use it if they choose to then how is it an unfair advantage?

Answer that question before going any further -

Fail - next fail will result in thread lock.
 
Poof

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The problem with trying to ban "tracking programs" is that we all have access to our own hand histories and people could just manually parse the data on their own.

There's really no way to prevent everyone that you play with from knowing that you like to 3-bet a lot or that you showdown with bad hands all the time unless you deny access to players' own hand histories.

Heck, even then people can take notes on you and observe your play at the table and keep track of important hands.

To make a long story short, when you sit down at a table you're going to give off information. Whether or not that information gets saved in hand histories, notes, trackers, whatever...it's going to be out there. The only thing you can do about it is improve your game.
^^This. The trackers that are legal on the sites track only hands on opponents that you have played with, which you could just as easily jot down your own notes.
The tracking software that data mines and collects info on ppl you have never sat down with is already banned on most sites.
 
dj11

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Onyx,

We have seen this outrage before. I too was concerned about trackers until I found out what they are and can/CAN NOT do for my game. I probably posted in or started a thread with similar concerns long ago.

Your original (OP) post is better formatted than most of the previous ones, but lacks even the clarity I think you seek. It reads like someone on a rant wrote it.

I/we would probably suggest you take the knowledge that others have stats on you as a wake up call to improve your own game. Knowing that he might know that you might know that he knows you know is a powerful inducement to more strategic thinking in all aspects of human life, not just poker.

I also suggest that if you do try to pass this petition along that you grow a very thick skin and learn a bit more humor. Clarify your thoughts and remove the panic that pervades the OP. Certainly a case could be made that trackers do as you fear (they don't) but you haven't made it in the OP mixing facts and fears does not make for a clear thought.

I for one thank you for providing us with some fresh fodder.....
 
OnyxPanther

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You have avoided answering the most important question asked -

Since everyone can use it if they choose to then how is it an unfair advantage?

Answer that question before going any further - and don't turn into a troll cause I have an itchy hammer.

Oh - and typing in all caps violates forum rules so don't do it again.

Not everyone can get the program because it is not free. hard to believe but some people only have 10-20 a month to try and make a better life for themselves. I just think if you couldnt do it in real life then you shouldnt be able to have a program do it. gonna go to a casino and mark every player at the tables move on your laptop so you have a better idea of what they are gonna do?
Honestly I wish I could afford one for tournies but I cant.
If he wants to play me thats cool we should but heads up isnt going to prove anything. If he plays the freerolls when I qualify then we will see.
I COME IN PEACE LOL geeez
Thanx for pointing out flaws in my argument and explaining the trackers a bit more for me
 
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