Possible to be competitive without HUD?

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bigrog70

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Hi all,

Just wondering how many of you use HUDs. Is it possible to be competitive without one?

Thanks.
 
Iryna Stryzheuskaya

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HUD does not work in some rooms already
 
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bigrog70

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I don't use a HUD, and I'm very competitive. :)


Good to know. So, I'm guessing you would not consider HUDs an unfair advantage?

HUD does not work in some rooms already


The "already" is kinda interesting as HUDs have been around for a long time. At least 15 years? Does anyone consider them an unfair advantage? I'm surprised some rooms ban them while others don't.
 
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jordanbillie

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Good to know. So, I'm guessing you would not consider HUDs an unfair advantage?


Definitely not. Most people don't realize that by using a HUD, they become predictable. Let them use HUDs, I'll still do just fine. :)

A big part of my (winning) strategy is taking advantage of players who play too many tables at once.
 
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fundiver199

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Yes its possible to win without using a HUD, at least in soft games. But if used properly a HUD will always give you a higher winrate, because it allows you to adjust better to individual opponents. So not using one, when its allowed, is certainly going to cost you money in the long run.

Lets say you are playing an MTT, and you open AJo from UTG+1. A player to your left, who was moved to the table just two hands ago, 3-bets. Because you have no reads on him, you have to fold, since this is the default line. However if you are using a HUD, it might show you, that you have played 56 hands with this guy before, and he has been playing 63% of his hands (VPIP) and raising preflop with 43% (PFR).

Of course we dont know for sure, if he is still playing like this, but chances are high, that this guy is still totally out of line, so we are not going to fold AJo to his 3-bet. If the effective stack is 34BB, then we probably just shove and let him decide what to do with his whatever. If its 89BB, we call and let him continue to hang himself on boards, where we hit.

Or lets say you have a slightly better hand like AQs. Then you would have to call the 3-bet, because that is the default line against a well balanced player. But this time the HUD show, that your opponent is a nit. You have played 1.589 hands with him, and over this big sample his stats are VPIP 16 / PFR 13 / 3-bet 2.

Again we dont know for sure, but with stats like these chances are very high, he has either AK, QQ, KK or AA. So we can just fold our AQs and save ourselfes from getting involved in a sticky spot, where usually we just end up being "coolered" by a better hand.
 
jordanbillie

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Yes its possible to win without using a HUD, at least in soft games. But if used properly a HUD will always give you a higher winrate, because it allows you to adjust better to individual opponents. So not using one, when its allowed, is certainly going to cost you money in the long run.


The qualifying term here is "if used properly." I believe that the majority of people using HUDs do not know how to use them properly. They let the HUD do the playing for them, turning them into a predictable/exploitable robot. It's an advanced tool that is useless or harmful if the foundations of winning poker are not understood.
 
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Yes its possible to win without using a HUD, at least in soft games. But if used properly a HUD will always give you a higher winrate, because it allows you to adjust better to individual opponents. So not using one, when its allowed, is certainly going to cost you money in the long run.

Lets say you are playing an MTT, and you open AJo from UTG+1. A player to your left, who was moved to the table just two hands ago, 3-bets. Because you have no reads on him, you have to fold, since this is the default line. However if you are using a HUD, it might show you, that you have played 56 hands with this guy before, and he has been playing 63% of his hands (VPIP) and raising preflop with 43% (PFR).

Of course we dont know for sure, if he is still playing like this, but chances are high, that this guy is still totally out of line, so we are not going to fold AJo to his 3-bet. If the effective stack is 34BB, then we probably just shove and let him decide what to do with his whatever. If its 89BB, we call and let him continue to hang himself on boards, where we hit.

Or lets say you have a slightly better hand like AQs. Then you would have to call the 3-bet, because that is the default line against a well balanced player. But this time the HUD show, that your opponent is a nit. You have played 1.589 hands with him, and over this big sample his stats are VPIP 16 / PFR 13 / 3-bet 2.

Again we dont know for sure, but with stats like these chances are very high, he has either AK, QQ, KK or AA. So we can just fold our AQs and save ourselfes from getting involved in a sticky spot, where usually we just end up being "coolered" by a better hand.

Thanks for the concrete examples. Is there an HUD that you use or would recommend? Um, are there free ones? Probably not?
 
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Just like with anything in life in order to get good at something you need study and practice.

Having and using a HUD does not magically improve your game. It is a tool that if used effectively will aid in study and practice.

Practice as you will be able to effectively play more games at once and play more hands. The more we do something the better we become at it, the less difficult it would seem to us. By effectively I mean you will have all the information from all games that you would have like if you played and concentrated on one game at a time only.

The greatest benefit of a HUD is for review of your own play. Easy to explain the edge a HUD player has over a non HUD player example:
If you play a mtt and play 300 hands how many of those hands can you remember the next day? Most likely 5-10 and you will struggle to remember the cards and situations exactly for even those 5-10 hands.

So the player with the HUD will have all 300 hands with exact actions and can thoroughly review them for areas they can improve. While the player without the HUD might have 10 hands to review from memory.

So to answer your question directly maybe you can be competitive without a HUD. However, how ever good you think you are a HUD will improve your game.

Hi all,
Just wondering how many of you use HUDs. Is it possible to be competitive without one?

Thanks.
 
Poker Orifice

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The qualifying term here is "if used properly." I believe that the majority of people using HUDs do not know how to use them properly. They let the HUD do the playing for them, turning them into a predictable/exploitable robot. It's an advanced tool that is useless or harmful if the foundations of winning poker are not understood.


I agree that many people using HUDs are not doing so effectively and it actually might be detrimental at times if they are attempting to process information incorrectly (due to either not enough experience or a lack of knowledge & skill).
Not sure what type of HUD you are referring to but if it's PT4 or HEM then the part I've bolded here in your statement is incorrect. These tracking HUDS (PT4 & HEM which is the ones that most players who are using HUDs will be using and are the ones allowed on some of the sites) don't tell you when to bet/fold/call/3B/4B etc. It never 'plays for them'.
Extracting information via one's HUD stats. is going to give the player information that they can then choose to use to make adjustment vs. their opponent. This actually helps them to potentally see the predictability of their opponent AND helps them to exploit their opponent. (not the other way around as you've suggested).

I'm also wondering, how you come up with your response..... how do you know who is actually using a HUD? and who is using it incorrectly? or is using it and making themselves play predictably?

Answer for the OP.... you don't need a HUD to be a winning player. I've played a couple million hands on an older laptop that lagged too much if I used a HUD so I just didn't bother to use one.

Also, as mentioned already... some sites don't allow the use of a HUD. Actually two of the biggest online sites today don't allow them (GGPoker & partypoker... where the WPT & wsop are being played right now!). Is it affecting the 'good' players? idk... I still see some of the top regulars crushing the tourneys on there today so I'm thinking they don't need them (also, fwiw, many of the online high stakes tourney players don't use them).
 
jfmcd86

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I've never used HUD's. I use my head. I gain information and I keep it in mind. I am always competitive and I don't see why I need to use HUD's
 
terryk

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No hud,,,,and i do just fine. ;)
 
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IMHO answer is very simple to that
HUD is a tool, and tool is good if it used properly and in proper situations
Every maestro has his own way of creating an art, but generally speaking you need common tools to learn how to do it
 
jordanbillie

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I agree that many people using HUDs are not doing so effectively and it actually might be detrimental at times if they are attempting to process information incorrectly (due to either not enough experience or a lack of knowledge & skill).
Not sure what type of HUD you are referring to but if it's PT4 or HEM then the part I've bolded here in your statement is incorrect. These tracking HUDS (PT4 & HEM which is the ones that most players who are using HUDs will be using and are the ones allowed on some of the sites) don't tell you when to bet/fold/call/3B/4B etc. It never 'plays for them'.
Extracting information via one's HUD stats. is going to give the player information that they can then choose to use to make adjustment vs. their opponent. This actually helps them to potentally see the predictability of their opponent AND helps them to exploit their opponent. (not the other way around as you've suggested).

I'm also wondering, how you come up with your response..... how do you know who is actually using a HUD? and who is using it incorrectly? or is using it and making themselves play predictably?

Answer for the OP.... you don't need a HUD to be a winning player. I've played a couple million hands on an older laptop that lagged too much if I used a HUD so I just didn't bother to use one.

Also, as mentioned already... some sites don't allow the use of a HUD. Actually two of the biggest online sites today don't allow them (GGPoker & Partypoker... where the WPT & WSOP are being played right now!). Is it affecting the 'good' players? idk... I still see some of the top regulars crushing the tourneys on there today so I'm thinking they don't need them (also, fwiw, many of the online high stakes tourney players don't use them).



I had a response to this typed up and I was 99% sure I posted it. I don't know why it would have been deleted, but maybe it was? Or maybe I just forgot to post it. :)

Either way, I now forget completely what I wrote...and I'm supposed to be working right now. So...yeah! :) Talk to you later! Hahahaha
 
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The homepage was down yesterday for a few hours, and some of my posts also seem to have been lost in that process.
 
zwbb

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HUD is needed. it's inconvenient when your opponent knows everything about your behavior at the table, but you don't.
 
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HUD is needed. it's inconvenient when your opponent knows everything about your behavior at the table, but you don't.


Thanks, zwbb. Which one do you use?
 
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bigrog70

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I had a response to this typed up and I was 99% sure I posted it. I don't know why it would have been deleted, but maybe it was? Or maybe I just forgot to post it. :)

Either way, I now forget completely what I wrote...and I'm supposed to be working right now. So...yeah! :) Talk to you later! Hahahaha

IMHO answer is very simple to that
HUD is a tool, and tool is good if it used properly and in proper situations
Every maestro has his own way of creating an art, but generally speaking you need common tools to learn how to do it

Thanks for your thoughts, both of you. Jordan, I AM still curious about your thoughts about potentially becoming predictable if you use an HUD. Just a couple of sentences, if you still remember what they are. Thx :).
 
poker_bro

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I play at small non-hud site and realized they are much softer than sites that allows hud. If you are using hud, you have to remember there are also players who use huds against you as well. Hud is great for mass multi-tabling, and for those who are aiming to become high stake professionals, but you definitely can make descent money without hud.
 
Gaviria8

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You can be competitive but not multi-tabling, I think HUD is necessary to multi-tabling
 
jordanbillie

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Thanks for your thoughts, both of you. Jordan, I AM still curious about your thoughts about potentially becoming predictable if you use an HUD. Just a couple of sentences, if you still remember what they are. Thx :).


HUDs seem to guide HUD User's consciousness toward classifying the "type" of player they are facing. Based mostly on vpip/rpre/aggr, which are 3 statistics gathered from the hand histories, HUD User's are making these classifications. These classifications will then guide the "proper" action or line to take against said opponent (i.e. He's playing 45/40 so I should 3 bet to steal more often pre...). Often, these very "conclusions" can make your own play extremely predictable. It's almost like a new dynamic of what I refer to as "levels." When we learn to play poker we all learn at level one (how strong is my hand in relation to the possible hands given the board texture). Then we progress to level two (how strong is my hand relative to the possible holdings of my opponent). Then level three (how strong is what I am representing to my opponent in relation to what they are holding). These levels can continue ad infinitum, the only limit is the experience of the players at the table. This leveling effect also applies to HUD usage. If you are someone who uses a HUD on level one, which is simply altering your line to better match against your opponents playing "style", you are susceptible to players who are on a higher level than you are. From my experience, a lot of HUD users are only level one type players who always take the same line because it is "optimal" and are extremely vulnerable and easy to extract value from. One other point I'd like to make is the potential error in categorizing a player based on a small hand history. Also, we forget that poker is an emotional game, one in which the control of emotions is critical for long term success. With this being said, players will play hands totally different depending on their emotional state at the time. I think the reliance on the data from HUDs often turns off the intuitive sense of "reading your opponent."

That's probably enough for a good discussion. :)

Thanks!

Jordan
 
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fundiver199

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HUDs seem to guide HUD User's consciousness toward classifying the "type" of player they are facing. Based mostly on vpip/rpre/aggr, which are 3 statistics gathered from the hand histories, HUD User's are making these classifications. These classifications will then guide the "proper" action or line to take against said opponent (i.e. He's playing 45/40 so I should 3 bet to steal more often pre...). Often, these very "conclusions" can make your own play extremely predictable. It's almost like a new dynamic of what I refer to as "levels." When we learn to play poker we all learn at level one (how strong is my hand in relation to the possible hands given the board texture). Then we progress to level two (how strong is my hand relative to the possible holdings of my opponent). Then level three (how strong is what I am representing to my opponent in relation to what they are holding). These levels can continue ad infinitum, the only limit is the experience of the players at the table. This leveling effect also applies to HUD usage. If you are someone who uses a HUD on level one, which is simply altering your line to better match against your opponents playing "style", you are susceptible to players who are on a higher level than you are. From my experience, a lot of HUD users are only level one type players who always take the same line because it is "optimal" and are extremely vulnerable and easy to extract value from. One other point I'd like to make is the potential error in categorizing a player based on a small hand history. Also, we forget that poker is an emotional game, one in which the control of emotions is critical for long term success. With this being said, players will play hands totally different depending on their emotional state at the time. I think the reliance on the data from HUDs often turns off the intuitive sense of "reading your opponent."

That's probably enough for a good discussion. :)

Thanks!

Jordan

Lots of speculation, since you dont even know, which of your opponents are actually using a HUD :)
 
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HUD's can be over rated too. While its great if you can get a general feel of a player they can be a crutch that will cost you. Recently someone question my play and my hyper LAG play and 4 bet shoved with a smaller pair. Yes I had played about 60% of the hands he had seen as well. The problem is I was at the table for about 15 hands. What he also failed to notice was the hands I showed down with. Not just but actual good hands but he never seemed to notice that part. Just my raising so much that day. Yes I called and took it down with a top 4 hand. Also some stats are not useful until you have enough hands VS a player. Cbet percentage is a good one. Yes you may have seen him for 500 hands but how many time did he have the chance to cbet? I personally dont use a HUD most of the time but like the taking of the hands I play for review later. Also not taking is a great help. Without a HUD I can see and pick up things other may miss. I am also less likely to be distracted this way. It will also be much more helpful when you play live poker.
 
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