Is it fair to use tools like HUD?

One of the skill element of poker is reading opponents, learning their behavior and playing accordingly. In non-online poker you are purely dependent on your memory, game and analytical skills. However, with online that is not the case.

Most of the grinders and professionals use HUD and other tools to have same information on players and in some cases they take advantage of softwares to take decision in a hand.

I know we cannot change that and no online poker room will be able to restrict that even if they intend to make online poker experience as close to physical room poker.

Would you as a non professional grinder feel comfortable playing online for big bucks, knowing that you Have a disadvantage?

I never used one, but I've seen a lot of streamers using that, I don't really think it's useful at all so yes, it's fair.

amitmanchanda said:

Most of the grinders and professionals use HUD and other tools to have same information on players and in some cases they take advantage of softwares to take decision in a hand.

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You are mixing up different topics here. Some poker sites allow the use of HUDs, while others dont. If HUDs are allowed, then everyone can use them, so its difficult to see, what is particularly unfair about it. If someone choose to not use a HUD, then that is their choise, and its no different from choosing to play when tired or drunk, or choosing to play 10 tables at the same time. With all these choises you are giving up some winrate in exchange for something else. If you dont want to use a HUD, then maybe play on a site, where they are not allowed. This would make a lot of sense.

If HUDs are not allowed, then people using them are cheating, which is of course not fair. Its also not that easy. You cant just use any of the common commercially available programs like PT4 or HM2, since the manufacturers of these programs cooperate with poker sites and accept their TOS. So you have to go to the grey market or make one yourself. I could personally not be bothered to do this, when I can just play on sites, where my PT4 is allowed. I would rather follow the rules and not risk to have my account banned.

Software, which help a player to make real time decisions, is generally not allowed on any site, so people using such software are also cheating. And sure some people probably are. But at low stakes I dont think, its common. Here we need to remember also, that it takes time and effort to for instance put software on another computer, so it cant be detected, and then manually plug in hands to get an answer.

I think, if I tried this, there would be a high risk, I timed out. And it would certainly not be possible, when I play 4 tables at a time. So even though I could do this, I dont particularly want to. And its not only a moral question. I just dont think, that for me personally it would be worth the hassle to for instance use ICMizer in real time. By working with the program off the table, which is allowed, I already get a better idea of the NASH equilibrium, which should be good enough to beat the games, I am playing.

Hi!

By doing this, I mean that I, too, have a chance to use any program. If I don’t, even the other person who takes advantage of that opportunity is not at fault. I think this program is necessary because otherwise it is very difficult to collect data from the other player. I think it’s like I can walk 5km if I want to buy a pair of pants for myself, but I can also do that by car and so everything goes faster and it will be easier for me to reach my destination.

The fairest way is if the poker room bans the third-party program and uses its own mini HUD.
As the largest Asian network.

No, I really would not feel comfortable knowing that there is a disadvantage, in my particular case I still do not use any software and to be honest I do not agree at all with its use, I think it takes away a little the essence of the game, of reading and of the ability and ability of a player, all there in a program, how comfortable they are.

if you are not a professional then playing for big money is a big mistake
everything has its time
from childhood we learn to walk
so in poker you have to grow to be higher
where HUD is allowed, I use it to better understand opponents, but previously I played and play without it and it's not bad at all
but it is better to develop the ability to read opponents, develop memory and attentiveness
..these are important components of live poker especially

If HUD's are allowed and everyone is welcome to use one- it's fair.

If HUD's are not allowed and someone uses one anyway- it's unfair.

That for me is the distinction.

If you enter a car in a race which allows turbos to be fitted, but you choose not to fit a turbo, is it unfair that other cars have one?

I believe partypoker has banned HUD's so if you'd prefer to play against players without them, I'd recommend playing there..

I think most other major sites allow them, but you can probably find out fairly easily where does and doesn't with a little Google research...

I played on GG tonight for the first time, they have a kind-of inbuilt mini-HUD which was fun..

Tracid said:

If HUD's are allowed and everyone is welcome to use one- it's fair.

If HUD's are not allowed and someone uses one anyway- it's unfair.

That for me is the distinction.

If you enter a car in a race which allows turbos to be fitted, but you choose not to fit a turbo, is it unfair that other cars have one?

I believe PartyPoker has banned HUD's so if you'd prefer to play against players without them, I'd recommend playing there..

I think most other major sites allow them, but you can probably find out fairly easily where does and doesn't with a little Google research...

I played on GG tonight for the first time, they have a kind-of inbuilt mini-HUD which was fun..

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Not everyone is comfortable using HUD or paying for the HUD software. For a professional grinder investing in best software makes sense but for a recreational player on same online poker room doesn’t. However, he is competing with someone who has edge.

I know some website are stopping the use of it but some people always find a way to find poop hole and use it.

I know in this age, live poker is not an option but I believe as a poker community we should send a message these online poker room to resolve this issue.

One possible solution is random table name every time you sit or no player name, just a seat position to be displayed. And same position As a name when they chat.

I personally don't like those specific tools ... that's why i'm on unibet

I don't really agree with its use. But the fact is that a lot of PROs use it, and the truth is that without such aids you can’t even play 16 or 24 tables like a lot of grinder does.
And since they don’t prohibit its use (maybe) so there’s nothing to do with users. It is also sure to be a serious advantage of such software but it is worth nothing in the hands of someone who cannot play well.
So it's an advantage in the hands of good players but it's not easy against them anyway.
So it’s a fer deal because it’s not forbidden, but it’s ethically questionable, however, the use of poker isn’t exactly an ethical game, because you’re bidding on your opponents ’chips by using every possible means.

So this is a vicious circle.:evil:

amitmanchanda said:

Not everyone is comfortable using HUD or paying for the HUD software. For a professional grinder investing in best software makes sense but for a recreational player on same online poker room doesn’t. However, he is competing with someone who has edge.

I know some website are stopping the use of it but some people always find a way to find poop hole and use it.

I know in this age, live poker is not an option but I believe as a poker community we should send a message these online poker room to resolve this issue.

One possible solution is random table name every time you sit or no player name, just a seat position to be displayed. And same position As a name when they chat.

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If a site doesn't allow HUDs I can assure you that site will be actively searching for players cheating by using them, so I don't get your point here.

I refer back to my race car analogy which you seem to have skipped past...

Basically, what you're saying is you want HUDs banned on all sites regardless of whether or not you play on that site because you don't want to use one or don't like them?

I think you've got a 'pie in the sky' my friend...

I'd suggest given your disposition, enter your racing car into the suitable races.

You can cast your vote for no-HUDs by not putting your dollar into sites which allow them. If enough people join you in voting the same way- eventually you'll see changes... :wink:

All the best,

This is why I play on Global Poker. Huds are against Terms of Service. I find that the only players that really get defensive over huds are grinders running multiple tables. Here is the deal. I'm not worried about your income...I play for competition and HUDs take a lot of the human element out of making decisions. The sooner more sites make HUDs inoperable the better it'll be for poker in general.

Early i try to use hud but it very lead away me so i finish

amitmanchanda said:

One of the skill element of poker is reading opponents, learning their behavior and playing accordingly. In non-online poker you are purely dependent on your memory, game and analytical skills. However, with online that is not the case.

Most of the grinders and professionals use HUD and other tools to have same information on players and in some cases they take advantage of softwares to take decision in a hand.

I know we cannot change that and no online poker room will be able to restrict that even if they intend to make online poker experience as close to physical room poker.

Would you as a non professional grinder feel comfortable playing online for big bucks, knowing that you Have a disadvantage?

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Yea it’s very difficult playing against somebody who uses HUD

Tracid said:

If a site doesn't allow HUDs I can assure you that site will be actively searching for players cheating by using them, so I don't get your point here.

I refer back to my race car analogy which you seem to have skipped past...

Basically, what you're saying is you want HUDs banned on all sites regardless of whether or not you play on that site because you don't want to use one or don't like them?

I think you've got a 'pie in the sky' my friend...

I'd suggest given your disposition, enter your racing car into the suitable races.

You can cast your vote for no-HUDs by not putting your dollar into sites which allow them. If enough people join you in voting the same way- eventually you'll see changes... :wink:

All the best,

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I understand your analogy, and I do not play online poker for money so I already cast my vote. However, that won’t change till the mass also agree that usage of the tools should be standard i.e. either no tool or same tool for everyone on that platform.

My agenda of this post to make people aware about the disadvantage they have without these tools. As I myself was not aware of these tools for good first 2 years when I was playing online poker even though low stakes.

No

No it's not fair to use HUDs.

First of all, you need to use the HUD to analyze and then adjust your game, find your mistakes and your opponents' mistakes in order to avoid them in the future.

poker tools are good but not a necessity

every poker room provide an essential poker tool the ability to mark players and take notes, it is now up to you as a poker player to utilize it to your benefit there are so many different colors to use make use of the tools available to you, and remember all poker hands are winning hands and loosing hands depends on the situation

amitmanchanda said:

One possible solution is random table name every time you sit or no player name, just a seat position to be displayed. And same position As a name when they chat.

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There are already sites with anonymous tables like ignition. However in my opinion this create other issues. Even in online poker history and dynamic is part of the game, especially in cash games, and this obviously disappear, when people are anonymous.

More important maybe it gets way easier for cheaters to hide in the sea of anonymous players, because other players cant identify suspicious patterns like someone always playing together (collusion) or playing in a certain way (bots). And just imagine what a dream anonymous tables would be for a superuser like POTRIPPER or Mike Postle.

So for me personally anomymous tables are not something, I am interested in. But if someone wants to play on them, they already exist. So why not just go there rather than "demand", that all poker sites must make all tables anonymous.

fundiver199 said:

There are already sites with anonymous tables like Ignition. However in my opinion this create other issues. Even in online poker history and dynamic is part of the game, especially in cash games, and this obviously disappear, when people are anonymous.

More important maybe it gets way easier for cheaters to hide in the sea of anonymous players, because other players cant identify suspicious patterns like someone always playing together (collusion) or playing in a certain way (bots). And just imagine what a dream anonymous tables would be for a superuser like POTRIPPER or Mike Postle.

So for me personally anomymous tables are not something, I am interested in. But if someone wants to play on them, they already exist. So why not just go there rather than "demand", that all poker sites must make all tables anonymous.

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You mentioned fair points and that’s the point of discussion. However, don’t agree with with dramatic ending with “demand”, which is not I was looking for. I am in this discussion for discussing Possibility of a fair system and close to live game experience.

I still believe these challenges are not big for a tournament game. Yes, you will not know who is a pro or fish but that’s the point. Going into game playing text book poker And not based on historical Image of that player. You can gain information about a player during tournament (each player will have one ID during the whole tournament)

fundiver199 said:

There are already sites with anonymous tables like Ignition. However in my opinion this create other issues. Even in online poker history and dynamic is part of the game, especially in cash games, and this obviously disappear, when people are anonymous.

More important maybe it gets way easier for cheaters to hide in the sea of anonymous players, because other players cant identify suspicious patterns like someone always playing together (collusion) or playing in a certain way (bots). And just imagine what a dream anonymous tables would be for a superuser like POTRIPPER or Mike Postle.

So for me personally anomymous tables are not something, I am interested in. But if someone wants to play on them, they already exist. So why not just go there rather than "demand", that all poker sites must make all tables anonymous.

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I've seen some other people say that anonymous tables are good for cheaters, but I don't see why they would be. Suspicious patterns like collusion and bots aren't likely to be identified by other players anyway, as the sites have way more data and visibility of what players are doing so will see these patterns themselves, they don't rely on them being reported by players. And the anonymous sites still have all this info on their players, as players are only anonymised to other players, not to the site itself. Am I missing something here?

As long as it's legal for everyone to use one, it's fair. I've just recently tried one out and feel that I'm "lazy" for not trying to use one sooner..