ICM Calculator for calculating final table chops

Poker Orifice

Poker Orifice

Fully Tilted
Platinum Level
Joined
Jan 19, 2008
Total posts
25,751
Awards
6
CA
Chips
1,020
Yes I did try the search feature on the forum before starting this thread.

Question: What ICM Calculator do any of you use for calculating final table chops? (ie. like on pokerstars seeing as their Admin. won't chop with ICM).

Last night I went on a couple sites & tried out two of them to calculate a final table chop (a table I was railing that a CC member was on - - a micro table on Stars, 3 players left). I ended up getting different numbers from each of the calcs. & thought this was pretty odd (yes I punched in the #'s correctly - prizepool/chipstacks). So.. I'm wondering which one to go with &/or what ones you folks use.
 
Poker Orifice

Poker Orifice

Fully Tilted
Platinum Level
Joined
Jan 19, 2008
Total posts
25,751
Awards
6
CA
Chips
1,020
Anyone?
The ones I was using are chillin411 & icmcalculator (dotcom)
 
O

only_bridge

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Mar 3, 2009
Total posts
1,805
Chips
0
Hm, odd. Shouldnt be too hard writing one yourself.

Perhaps one is numerical, and one is mathematical.

edit: For just 3 people I dont think you really need any calculator. Its easy enough to do the calculations in your head.
 
Poker Orifice

Poker Orifice

Fully Tilted
Platinum Level
Joined
Jan 19, 2008
Total posts
25,751
Awards
6
CA
Chips
1,020
only_bridge said:
edit: For just 3 people I dont think you really need any calculator. Its easy enough to do the calculations in your head.
Click to expand...
Really? So when the adrenaline's flowing & you got couple/few players discussin' chat, it's easy enough to work out ICM chop numbers? (it's not always gonna be with 3 players obviously either)
I figured it'd easier to just plug numbers into the calc., & hit 'calculate'?

tks Wizz.
 
B

BlueNowhere

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Sep 1, 2011
Total posts
4,234
Chips
0
It baffles me that PS still don't offer an ICM calculator at the final table and stick with chip/chop. Main event of WCOOP and they don't even offer the players ICM deal, just put a chip/chop out there to start discussions with.

I just type in ICM calculator and use one off the internet that comes up on google.
 
O

only_bridge

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Mar 3, 2009
Total posts
1,805
Chips
0
Poker Orifice said:
Really? So when the adrenaline's flowing & you got couple/few players discussin' chat, it's easy enough to work out ICM chop numbers? (it's not always gonna be with 3 players obviously either)
I figured it'd easier to just plug numbers into the calc., & hit 'calculate'?

tks Wizz.
Click to expand...
Well, yes you are right. When you are 4 players or more you probably want an ICM calculator to not have to think about it.

It would be interesting to see the two different results you got from the two different calculators.
Perhaps its just a numerical fault that got magnified.
There are some famous cases when that can happen pretty fast. Like the Vandermonde matrix or the Hilbert matrix. Or when you have tiny decimals.
 
Last edited:
W

WiZZiM

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Oct 28, 2009
Total posts
5,008
Chips
0
I assume the inaccuracy was in the decimal places? Otherwise you must have input something wrong.

I know chillin's works fine even though it's not a maintained webpage anymore.
 
F4STFORW4RD

F4STFORW4RD

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Jun 5, 2011
Total posts
767
Chips
0
only_bridge said:
For just 3 people I dont think you really need any calculator. Its easy enough to do the calculations in your head.
Click to expand...
I don't think that most people could do it in their head, even for 3 players. Here's the example from a thread that chillin411 links to.
So, you have to calculate your ICM expected value (EV) for three situations: if you were to fold, if you were to call and win, and if you were to call and lose. We will ignore splitting the pot in this situation since it will occur less than one percent of the time. I'll address splitting the pot in the next article.
We will start with the first situation. If you were to fold, the button would still have 2000 chips, you would have 3700 chips, and the small blind would have 4300 chips. When you enter these numbers into the calculator, it will output the ICM value of 0.3482. If you were playing a $10+1 buy-in tournament, you'd have an expected value of $100*0.3482, or $34.82, with that chip stack against those other two chip stacks, specifically. In other words, in the long run, you'd expect to win $34.82 on average if you were put in this exact situation every time. Not bad, eh?

Now, let's calculate the second and third situations. If you call and lose, the math is very simple; you would end up with 0 chips and 3rd place, or an ICM expected value of 0.2000. When you multiply this number by the prize pool, you end up with $100*0.2, or $20 in the long run, which is the payout for 3rd place. If you call and win, you will have 8000 chips, and the button will have 2000 chips. When you punch this value into the ICM calculator, the calculator outputs a value of 0.4600.

What's the expected value of calling? QQ will win 56% of the time versus AK. We can figure these percentages out using the help of an odds calculator. So, 56% of the time, we'll have an ICM of 0.4600, and 44% of the time, we'll have an ICM of 0.2000. So if we average this out, we have (0.56*0.46)+(0.44*0.2) = 0.3457.

This gives us a EV of calling at 0.3457, and an EV of folding of 0.3482. So, the more optimal play is to fold your QQ. If we wanted to quantify this, at a $10+1 tournament, the difference between the two decisions on average is $100*(0.3482 – 0.3457), which is equal to a quarter. A quarter doesn't sound like much, but that is an increase of your ROI by 2.3% by folding instead of calling in this situation every time.
Click to expand...
You're suggesting to do that in our head?
 
Poker Orifice

Poker Orifice

Fully Tilted
Platinum Level
Joined
Jan 19, 2008
Total posts
25,751
Awards
6
CA
Chips
1,020
WiZZiM said:
I assume the inaccuracy was in the decimal places? Otherwise you must have input something wrong.

I know chillin's works fine even though it's not a maintained webpage anymore.
Click to expand...
I typed in the numbers 'exactly' the same into each of the two I tried using (one was Chillin411, the other was at icmcalculator (dotcom). It was while railing a newer CC member while they were on final table of a micro turbo MTT... they chopped at final 3 (so I compared the chop they were discussing, & was commenting on the guy's 'rail' thread while they were making the deal). Numbers came out different which I thought was pretty f'n odd?
I'll just stick with Chillin411 I guess.
 
Samango

Samango

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Dec 2, 2008
Total posts
1,014
Awards
1
Chips
0
It would seem that the obvious thing to do would be to run the same numbers through a couple of different calculators and see if you can 'prove' that one is more accurate.
You haven't provided the figures or results or I would have had a go myself
 
Poker Orifice

Poker Orifice

Fully Tilted
Platinum Level
Joined
Jan 19, 2008
Total posts
25,751
Awards
6
CA
Chips
1,020
Q__ said:
And yes icmcalculator (dotcom) produces wrong results.
Click to expand...
And I guess there ^ is my answer.

I'm a tad nervous to click on the link seeing as it's your only post on here. Guess I'll google search it. (tks for posting).
 
Q

Q__

Rising Star
Bronze Level
Joined
Feb 13, 2012
Total posts
6
Chips
0
No problems. Program is called ICMIZER and you can find quitea lot of information about it in internet I guess.

I created it so if you have any questions send me a pm.
 
fletchdad

fletchdad

Jammin................
Loyaler
Joined
Feb 3, 2010
Total posts
11,719
Awards
2
Chips
134
Q__ said:
No problems. Program is called ICMIZER and you can find quitea lot of information about it in internet I guess.

I created it so if you have any questions send me a pm.
Click to expand...


Welcome to CC.

Link seems fine BTW.
 
Poker Orifice

Poker Orifice

Fully Tilted
Platinum Level
Joined
Jan 19, 2008
Total posts
25,751
Awards
6
CA
Chips
1,020
Q__ said:
No problems. Program is called ICMIZER and you can find quitea lot of information about it in internet I guess.

I created it so if you have any questions send me a pm.
Click to expand...
Do you play the pokerzz? What type > Sng? MTT? MTT-SNG?
What motivated you to create an icm calc.?
 
Q

Q__

Rising Star
Bronze Level
Joined
Feb 13, 2012
Total posts
6
Chips
0
I have been playing poker professionaly for some years, but last year mostly been developing ICMIZER.

Here is my chart from 2008 for example
QcontinueCareer.png
 
Poker Odds Calculator
Top