HUDs on the way out?

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Poker247

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Just read the article about a player being "outed" for using a HUD on wsop website in Nevada. I don't currently use a HUD (play micros and tiny mtts), but realistically how long will it be before most major sites ban them? My understanding is that a majority of serious players use them especially when multi-tabling.
 
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dturner100

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Why would they?
They in no way give an unfair advantage.
Using one requires learning anyway. All they do is calculate stats that the user has seen.
They don't reveal unseen cards. They don't in anyway predict anything on the server side.
pokerstars being the absolute biggest poker site in the world lists the major HUDS as being accepted.

They're not going to tell their top players who bring in their biggest revenue that they must stop using HUDS because people who can't learn to use them complain about them.
 
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Why would they?
They in no way give an unfair advantage.
Using one requires learning anyway. All they do is calculate stats that the user has seen.
They don't reveal unseen cards. They don't in anyway predict anything on the server side.
PokerStars being the absolute biggest poker site in the world lists the major HUDS as being accepted.

They're not going to tell their top players who bring in their biggest revenue that they must stop using HUDS because people who can't learn to use them complain about them.

Wanting to protect recreational players would be the biggest reason why I would think.

If recreational players feel like they are at a disadvantage not only skill wise but technology wise as well they might stop coming or stop depositing.
Those top players that don't deposit regularly (or at all) aren't the life source of online poker rooms. It's the players who are losing and putting more money into circulation.

Protecting deposit(ers) is important it's why Bovada has the anonymous tables, it's why Full Flush was barring winning players when they first started going.
 
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dturner100

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Hell, your average player who does buy a hud is typically not skilled enough to use one to actually improve his/her style of play. You still have to exercise fundamental poker, and discipline.

Not to mention, what about the affiliate programs that HM, PT, PO, and other tracker/hud software companies bring.

No matter what how many of the minimum depositors complain I don't think they reach the neighborhood of revenue that the others bring.
 
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No matter what how many of the minimum depositors complain I don't think they reach the neighborhood of revenue that the others bring.

They wouldn't bring in any revenue at all if the lower level people weren't depositing. - They for the most part are just playing with recreational players money.

There is one way to get money into an online poker sites ecosystem which is deposits. There are two ways to get it out. Withdraws and rake.
For every winning player that withdraws regularly the poker site is losing money.

Losing recreational players who deposit are more important than winning grinders long term.
 
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KLDUFF1987

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these "Huds" do give an unfair advantage over rec player like myself who don't have enough hours in the day to play. I work 8-12 shifts so I can't really play a lot and find it rather annoying if someone who has tones of money and spend it on a hud is cheating in my book
 
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vwls

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HUDs don't cost tons of money--free poker Database can even be obtained for free--nor does having more hours in the day to play constitute an unfair advantage. Also, in determining whether using a HUD is cheating, the only book that matters is the terms and conditions of each site. If it is not cheating in their book, and if you are playing poker on their site, then your book holds no merit, and it is not cheating.
 
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underdog140

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Lets hope so ....

I have never used one and never will.

It most certainly does give you an edge / unfair advantage over someone who does not use it / or simply doesn't know such a thing is available. I am not sure how someone can both be honest with themselves and argue other wise.

Ban all Hud's
 
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Reading Books, Watching Videos, posting on Poker Forums gives poker players an unfair advantage because they are putting the hours in to learn a game. Do you ban books, videos and forums.

A HUD is just an investment in your game, A HUD doesnt teach you how to play at the tables, it just gives you an idea of player tendencies. The main learning is when you arent playing and analysing your play to improve.
 
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Lets hope so ....

I have never used one and never will.

It most certainly does give you an edge / unfair advantage over someone who does not use it / or simply doesn't know such a thing is available. I am not sure how someone can both be honest with themselves and argue other wise.

Ban all Hud's
It is not an unfair advantage - many professional poker players use huds and reccommend it to others. It is an advantage, but certainly not unfair, because you can calculate all the things yourself- hud does it for you.
 
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I would agree with the side that says HUD's aren't an unfair advantage but I still wouldn't be completely surprised if sites started heading away from them.
 
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underdog140

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Reading Books, Watching Videos, posting on Poker Forums gives poker players an unfair advantage because they are putting the hours in to learn a game. Do you ban books, videos and forums.

A HUD is just an investment in your game, A HUD doesnt teach you how to play at the tables, it just gives you an idea of player tendencies. The main learning is when you arent playing and analysing your play to improve.

Not the same thing. You are putting work in and going by knowledge you have worked hard to retain in your memory in your top examples. When using a HUD its information that is displayed using an outside program.

It JUST gives you an Idea of Players Tendencies..... That is not JUST ... that is a BIG advantage over someone.

It is not an unfair advantage - many professional poker players use huds and reccommend it to others.

Someone recommending them or not doesn't make them fair. I myself would recommend them even though I won't use them myself and am against them. Why is that ... because they give an advantage. To not recommend them to a player would be silly.

It is an advantage, but certainly not unfair, because you can calculate all the things yourself- hud does it for you.

Someone can make the same argument for bots. We can make the same calculations bots do and same plays.

It is unfair to the new player who has no Idea what a HUD is. It is unfair to the average player who just deposit and loses what ever they have set aside for poker that week that is looking for some entertainment or to get lucky. Either make them a part of the over all site and one is auto shown for use to everyone or ban them so no-one can use them.
 
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vwls

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Ban all Hud's

For those of you that believe that HUDs provide an unfair advantage, there are alternatives. There is a reputable and free HUD available in free poker Database. You could also use the time spent speaking out against HUDs toward informing others about the availability and usage of HUDs. Also, Carbon Poker provides Holdem Indicator for exclusive use with their client, at no charge. It is free and available for all players on Carbon Poker.

Reading Books, Watching Videos, posting on Poker Forums gives poker players an unfair advantage because they are putting the hours in to learn a game. Do you ban books, videos and forums.

I agree with your point, but do you truly consider this advantage to be unfair? Is it unfair for someone who has put in the time and effort to become a better poker player to then apply their knowledge and become a better poker player? If I do 100 push-ups every day for a year and win a Christmas push-up-a-thon at the end of the year against someone who didn't do a single push-up all year, was my training an unfair advantage?
 
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vwls

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Either make them a part of the over all site and one is auto shown for use to everyone [...]

I didn't see this before I made my previous comment. I am glad to see that you brought this up, because Carbon Poker has done just that. They provide Holdem Indicator to all of their players for use with their site, at no charge. Interestingly enough, I have seen people argue that it is unfair for a HUD to be available to everyone, but that is obviously a much less credible argument. There are many opinions and proposed solutions to the fairness or unfairness of HUDs, many of which have been implemented on different sites, though not universally. It could be a matter of finding which sites cater to your personal needs.
 
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underdog140

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For those of you that believe that HUDs provide an unfair advantage, there are alternatives. There is a reputable and free HUD available in Free Poker Database. You could also use the time spent speaking out against HUDs toward informing others about the availability and usage of HUDs. Also, Carbon Poker provides Holdem Indicator for exclusive use with their client, at no charge. It is free and available for all players on Carbon Poker.

I am aware of free huds. I simply choose not to use them.. free or not.

It would be impossible to inform everyone about huds. It would be much easier and productive for those against it to voice their opinion in topics like this one and cast their opinion to the poker sites who have control over allowing them to be used on their sites or not / that can implement them into their client for everyone.
 
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vwls

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That's what I'm saying. You can focus your energy toward something positive, such as convincing more sites to follow the model that Carbon Poker has produced. If you can make a change through topics such as this in one way, then why not another way, as well? Voicing your opinion to the poker sites and possibly convincing more sites to follow what Carbon has done would serve the dual purpose of informing everyone about HUDs, because more players would have access to them. You can achieve both results.
 
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underdog140

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I do / have done both those things in regards to banning HUDS. Placing Huds in poker clients for everyone to use I see as the second best option. I much rather the first. Banning them altogether. Although I see both options as being fair to everyone.
 
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Lots of strong opinions on this one. As of now, I do not use a HUD, but I can certainly see the benefits of using one...especially as far as helping to improve one's game and remember players stats when multi-tabling a lot. I don't play on Carbon, but think that might be the best option as far as leveling the field. The advantage will still go to the players who learn how to use a HUD to further their game...which I believe is how it should be. Those who put in the time, both on and off the table, should be able to do better than those who just come in for recreation and gambling fun. I am sure many poker sites are still considering their options on this issue.
 
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vwls

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I do / have done both those things in regards to banning HUDS. Placing Huds in poker clients for everyone to use I see as the second best option. I much rather the first. Banning them altogether. Although I see both options as being fair to everyone.

Thank you for clarifying your stance. If you don't mind me asking, how have you gone about contacting different sites, and what types of responses did they give you? Do you think that a universal ban of HUDs is possible or even likely? Until recently, I wasn't aware that HUDs were a major point of discussion, in this way.
 
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underdog140

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Thank you for clarifying your stance. If you don't mind me asking, how have you gone about contacting different sites, and what types of responses did they give you?

I only discussed it with one site. It was through regular support who I was already in talks with for a different minor issue. I got forwarded to one of their specific support groups who sent me a standard copy and paste response that didn't address my statements on HUDS. I did get the vibe/feeling that the original support person I was in contact with agreed with me but just couldn't come right out and say it. This was about a year ago.

Do you think that a universal ban of HUDs is possible or even likely? Until recently, I wasn't aware that HUDs were a major point of discussion, in this way.

I think eventually the top sites will have them banned. With some mid level sites and allot of low level sites allowing them trying to pick up the players that might move some of their play to a site that allows them.
 
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dturner100

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To say they provide an unfair advantage means you know absolutely nothing about what a hud does.

A hud does absolutely NOTHING I can't or don't do in my head.
It's the same as using a television remote or a car.
You could get off the couch to change the channel but why when you have a remote?

If I didn't have the knowledge and ability to make these calculations before huds I wouldn't be playing poker to begin with.

But just like any other controversial topic like this I don't claim my answer is right or wrong, fact or fiction.
I enjoy a friendly debate as much as anybody.
 
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vwls

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Fairness aside, it is unrealistic to say that you can record stats in your head in the same way that a HUD can save stats onto--and recall them from--your hard drive. At the very least, you would need a pen and paper. Even then, it would be very difficult to focus on the game while also recording the number of times each player takes each type of action in each position and calculating and updating the percentages of each action after each hand, throughout the game. I hope I am not taking your comment too seriously, but that is how you stated it. Without a HUD, it is possible to take notes and to recall how players performed in previous hands, but not in the very specific and accurate way that a HUD is able to do. Also, it would be near impossible to make these calculations both in your head and across multiple tables, as many players utilize HUDs to do. To your car analogy, I say that you could just as easily walk to the grocery store, but a car will get you there fifteen times faster. Usain Bolt never wins a race against a car.
 
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underdog140

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To say they provide an unfair advantage means you know absolutely nothing about what a hud does.

A hud does absolutely NOTHING I can't or don't do in my head.
It's the same as using a television remote or a car.
You could get off the couch to change the channel but why when you have a remote?

If I didn't have the knowledge and ability to make these calculations before huds I wouldn't be playing poker to begin with.

But just like any other controversial topic like this I don't claim my answer is right or wrong, fact or fiction.
I enjoy a friendly debate as much as anybody.

Does your car allow you to use information displayed to you to take money from other's that have no Idea a car is available to them ?

Your argument can be applied to BOTS also. Bots do nothing I can't do myself. I can make the same calculations and plays BOTS do.

Here is a challenge for you. Go ahead and disable your HUD and record a session of your play. While you are playing in real time guess the stats of each player at your table that a HUD would display. Turn your HUD back on and see how correct you were. Since HUDS do nothing that you can't do yourself. Your stats should be the same as the HUDS and it should be as easy for you as getting up to turn the T.V. channel instead of using your remote.

+ 1 for friendly debates
 
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dturner100

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Does your car allow you to use information displayed to you to take money from other's that have no Idea a car is available to them ?

Your argument can be applied to BOTS also. Bots do nothing I can't do myself. I can make the same calculations and plays BOTS do.

Here is a challenge for you. Go ahead and disable your HUD and record a session of your play. While you are playing in real time guess the stats of each player at your table that a HUD would display. Turn your HUD back on and see how correct you were. Since HUDS do nothing that you can't do yourself. Your stats should be the same as the HUDS and it should be as easy for you as getting up to turn the T.V. channel instead of using your remote.

+ 1 for friendly debates

I don't condone the use of bots at all but they do something we don't which is strict consistent play based on a preset of rules.

Why do we lose hands when we know we're beat? Tilt, and lack of discipline. Bots don't experience that.

Huds in no way make it to where I can play poker longer with performance in the 18th hour as it was in the first.

But I do agree it's like a super extension of a memory but I don't need them to calculate. I spent my younger days losing money to learn the importance of poker math.
I spent a lot of time and money learning what I have.

Would you consider a dictionary an unfair study guide for a spelling bee?
I do see you all want recreational players to enjoy themselves but using a hud doesn't eliminate a learning process at all.
Nobody is going to get rich stealing money at a micro stakes table or even low stakes but whether it's brain alone or even some tools, once you step out of the realm of recreational levels there's going to be a learn or fail point.
 
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vwls

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Please understand that I am not arguing for or against the use of HUDs. I am only addressing your comments.

I don't condone the use of bots at all but they do something we don't which is strict consistent play based on a preset of rules.

This is in the same way that HUDs do something that we don't, which is strict, consistent recollection of every specific action that multiple opponents have taken over thousands of hands and across multiple tables.

Huds in no way make it to where I can play poker longer with performance in the 18th hour as it was in the first.

But, they can allow you to recall the performance of an opponent--down to the exact percentage of any type of action--as accurately in the 18th hour as in the first. They may not help you play poker longer, but they enable you to remember the actions of every one of your opponents that you have ever played with, whether you were tired one day or distracted on another day. It's also not about multiple hours. It's about multiple days, months, and thousands of hands. Mental performance is a type of performance. Our memories do fatigue. HUDs never forget, they are always accurate, and they are never clouded by emotional responses to the people at our table. Tilt and lack of discipline effect our play as well as our perception of our opponents.

But I do agree it's like a super extension of a memory but I don't need them to calculate.

HUDs serve many functions besides poker calculations. The primary function of a HUD is not to calculate odds, or any other poker math. A HUD is used to track stats, and odds calculators are available in conjunction with certain HUDs.

Would you consider a dictionary an unfair study guide for a spelling bee?

No, but it would be unfair for a speller to reference a dictionary during a spelling competition.
 
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