Are HUDs and Tracking Software dying?

More and more poker rooms in recent years are opting in for the following: banning tracking software, not providing hand histories, allowing aliases changes and removing players' names from hand histories and replacing them with "Villain#".


I am very grateful that I came across a tracking software some years ago. It really opened my eyes to advanced strategies and vantage points that I didn't have before. It's easier for me to look for certain patters and behaviours as the hand plays out. Of course there's so much more to improve. Unfortunately, with this phasing out I don't know for how much longer I will be able to use a HUD.
I am in search of a poker room at the moment where I can take advantage of welcome bonus, to improve my bankroll. I have spent a few days comparing and viewing different deals and found out how many do not support HUDs. I am left in dismay and at crossroads right now. On the one hand I hear about these sites that are so soft. Undeniably, they are soft because HUDs are not there so the edge is reduced and a lot more bad decisions being committed more frequently. That is a great plus for online poker!

On the other hand. Multitabling is such a fantastic element and advantage of online poker. This allows us to play much smaller stakes thus lessening our risk of ruin. I just can't imagine multitabling without a HUD! It's just, at least for me, impossible to memorize all the information and details about players, say when you play 6+ tables. At Full Ring of 9 that is 54 players. Moreover we don't see physical faces and are presented with generic numerical names like "5435xxX980". I am wondering is there any point multitabling any more tables than 4.

Another fact is book-keeping. Knowing your performance, session review, rake paid, etc. Are they gonna withhold hand histories?

Anyway, I was wondering what's the general opinion right now on the situation. And would like to hear from both sides of the camp. How do HUD users deal with this. Any tips on multitabling, etc.

What are companies like HEM, PT going to do about it, if there's anything they can do at all?

Are users adapting to multitabling without HUDs now, or they move to a site that supports tracking software.


Thanks.

Man i really hope at all this cheating software is banned and we can start playing poker again.

ScooperNova said:

Man i really hope at all this cheating software is banned and we can start playing poker again.

Click to expand...

Fair enough. I understand your point of view. I personally don't mind playing against someone with a HUD. Not every one with a HUD is a good player. Besides, you can see on this forum a great many elite members who've never used a HUD.


More opinions, anyone?

America's Cardroom Allows HUD. I mainly play there. I don't know about intertops, because I can't download it. I believe that betonline allows a HUD. To me not allowing a HUD for online play would be the equivalent of not being able to look at the players you are playing against live.

Kanetuck said:

America's Cardroom Allows HUD. I mainly play there. I don't know about intertops, because I can't download it. I believe that betonline allows a HUD. To me not allowing a HUD for online play would be the equivalent of not being able to look at the players you are playing against live.

Click to expand...

Thanks for the tips. To be fair, I don't know if it's a good simili. Because when you play Live it is up to you to make mental notes of who, when, what. Which requires utmost focal energy, efficiency, skill and discipline. Arguably one could say a great part of poker skill. Whereas HUD does all that for ya! Therefore it narrows the skill field big time, by providing this service to someone who hasn't spent a considerable time developing these skills and abilities.

At a Live game, the skill to observe, memorize, analyse and utilise the information takes a lot of mental energy resources. In online multitabling (with a considerable number of tables) it's not possible to apply this approach with the sheer information overload: too many tables at once needing action, too many players to remember, not enough time to process this info the old fashioned way – usually 15 seconds or less in a cash game before everything starts beeping all over the place. In a live game people take over a minute or way more to make a tough decision.

In short, personally, I don't think it's "the equivalent of not being able to look at the players you are playing against live" but nor is online poker equivalent to Live one (i.e. multitabling, short decision time limitations).

Good point. But HUDs are not magic, you still have to know how to use the information. For me, I consider it an excellent teaching tool. I only recently started using a HUD, and quite frankly that can be information overload as well. Anytime you try something new there is going to be a learning curve. I was definitely overwhelmed at my first live tournament. Keeping track of the potsize was difficult enough.

Kanetuck said:

Good point. But HUDs are not magic, you still have to know how to use the information. For me, I consider it an excellent teaching tool. I only recently started using a HUD, and quite frankly that can be information overload as well. Anytime you try something new there is going to be a learning curve. I was definitely overwhelmed at my first live tournament. Keeping track of the potsize was difficult enough.

Click to expand...

I agree.

Daithi said:

I agree.

Click to expand...

It's progress. Just like helmet communication in the NFL, better drivers and balls in golf.... Just evolution. There is always folks that want it like the "good ole days".

I like it when poker is a game about matching wits and players forming their own opinions and making plays based on their own thoughts. This is where superior players can gain an advantage. This is why I prefer live poker where you are your own database as opposed to online poker where it becomes a video game and you don't have the need to possess half the skills that make a good live player. Any software that brings inferior players closer to skilled players is bad for the skilled player and a boon for the mediocre. Poker software is an equalizer that helps the less skilled compete with the more skilled, that is it's very purpose and the reason it is so popular. It's the same logic behind anonymous play, these are tools for the mediocre and the recreational.

A HUD is just an indicator. Sometimes they lead you completely astray.

I wanted to try PT4 out not just to experience HUD play but to have somewhere to store hands and be able to look at my own game. If they do disallow HUDs they shouldn't stop us from gathering information about our own game in order to find holes and get better.

LJG23 said:

I wanted to try PT4 out not just to experience HUD play but to have somewhere to store hands and be able to look at my own game. If they do disallow HUDs they shouldn't stop us from gathering information about our own game in order to find holes and get better.

Click to expand...

Absolutely! Especially when our tracking software keeps an eye on their Randon Number Generator. We can see the frequencies of being dealt hole cards, straights, flushes (flop, turn, river) and how they correlate with reality. Witholding hand histories is unacceptable.

party poker witholds the name of the players in hand histories now. This way we can get histories for later analyses without building a database on player tendencies. Which is fair for both sides.

One thing is certain. Not providing hand histories is wrong!

okeedokalee said:

A HUD is just an indicator. Sometimes they lead you completely astray.

Click to expand...

No, they are cheating devices that make players magically crush!

I've yet to hear a valid or rational argument against HUD's. People want to make online poker, live poker, but it's not. It's much different, and everyone has access to have a HUD if they so want. The players who don't do their due diligence and get a HUD, were they ever going to be successful any ways? No. That's just intellectual laziness.

That's my 2 1/2 cents.

John A said:

No, they are cheating devices that make players magically crush!

I've yet to hear a valid or rational argument against HUD's. People want to make online poker, live poker, but it's not. It's much different, and everyone has access to have a HUD if they so want. The players who don't do their due diligence and get a HUD, were they ever going to be successful any ways? No. That's just intellectual laziness.

That's my 2 1/2 cents.

Click to expand...

I understand what u mean, but it's not a cheating device..

An example : You are playing poker, and you keep going all in for X times. X Time's nobody call's you.. Than you got AA and you think, oké let's go all in again. Than the player who looks at the hud see's that your pfr and vpip is v high so he might call more often than a guy without a hud..

In live tourney's u won't need it because it's way easier to recognize a humanface ( and the tactics ).

okeedokalee said:

A HUD is just an indicator. Sometimes they lead you completely astray.

Click to expand...

John A said:

No, they are cheating devices that make players magically crush!

That's my 2 1/2 cents.

Click to expand...

Well said John ! :hahaha:

John A said:

People want to make online poker, live poker, but it's not.
It's much different, and everyone has access to have a HUD if they so want.
The players who don't do their due diligence and get a HUD, were they ever going to be successful any ways? No. That's just intellectual laziness.

Click to expand...

Seriously,
you are correct it is not, but why not? Why can't there be some places where it is?
Anyway it is not 'just intellectual laziness' it is also amateur poverty that cannot justify monthly subscriptions for occasional use.
A so called free trial period doesn't really give everyone access.

On the other hand, if the products were free, then there would be a lot of intellectual laziness, as learning, configuring and using them certainly does require a different set of skills unique to online poker.

I would be happy to play hudless should we all be so.
It would even the playing field. It is still easy to see maniacs, stations, passives, TAGs, LAGs, without a HUD.

wildywild said:

I understand what u mean, but it's not a cheating device..

An example : You are playing poker, and you keep going all in for X times. X Time's nobody call's you.. Than you got AA and you think, oké let's go all in again. Than the player who looks at the hud see's that your pfr and vpip is v high so he might call more often than a guy without a hud..

In live tourney's u won't need it because it's way easier to recognize a humanface ( and the tactics ).

Click to expand...

I thought my sarcasm was thick enough that it would be obvious. Not to mention, I sell a HUD product.

Saying HUD's are cheating, is like saying that tennis players with custom grip rackets are cheating. If you're trying to play at a high level, and not using the best possible resources to do so, you're only cheating yourself.

Chemist said:

Seriously,
you are correct it is not, but why not? Why can't there be some places where it is?
Anyway it is not 'just intellectual laziness' it is also amateur poverty that cannot justify monthly subscriptions for occasional use.
A so called free trial period doesn't really give everyone access.

On the other hand, if the products were free, then there would be a lot of intellectual laziness, as learning, configuring and using them certainly does require a different set of skills unique to online poker.

Click to expand...

If you're in poverty, you shouldn't be playing poker for money. Play it for play money for entertainment, but don't risk your food money.

There are free HUDs out there, and like everything, you get what you pay for. If you want a quality product in any avenue of life, you're going to need to pay for it.

I found poker tracker to be incredibly distracting and it only kept notes on your personal h2h experience with that player. It might be good for the guy playing 200k hands per month but that is not most players. Probably does help if you have a large data set against players in MTTs.

MagicDick said:

I found poker tracker to be incredibly distracting and it only kept notes on your personal h2h experience with that player. It might be good for the guy playing 200k hands per month but that is not most players. Probably does help if you have a large data set against players in MTTs.

Click to expand...

To be honest with you, tracking software is so beneficial on so many levels. Even without HUD! Having the option to review your hands, how you played, which moves make you money and which don't. Tracking how much rake you paid per session, Net won. How often you flop sets. Is the cardroom's rng accurate, etc. It's just endless. You can always turn off HUD when you dont find it useful.

You could also buy giant hand histories to import into your tracker.

This is very interesting discussion. I use HM when i play from my pc. It is useful not only as a hud but as a database software which allows you to see again and analyze your previous hands. It also keeps record about what you win and loose which is very useful information. As already mentioned HUD just shows you the information that you already have available in the hand history and is not magical tool that gives you advice how to play or something like that.

Discussion about the future of HUDs is in fact discussion about the way online poker will develop in future. If we want to preserve multi tabling which gives us the possibility to grind more per hour we need software like HUDs. If we want online poker to become more like live poker (hence slower) you can easily remove the names from the hand history and you are done. This is decision that every player and poker room will make individually. For now the biggest room (PS) allows HUDs so i will use my HUD till this is legal. It is not true that HUDs are only for the rich - there are completely free alternatives so everybody who have the will to try and learn something new have the option to do it. For me the best would be if you learn how to use properly HUD when you play online and to also play live enough so that you learn to take notes properly. This way you will play well in all situations - online with hud, online without hud and live.

Kanetuck said:

America's Cardroom Allows HUD. I mainly play there. I don't know about intertops, because I can't download it. I believe that betonline allows a HUD. To me not allowing a HUD for online play would be the equivalent of not being able to look at the players you are playing against live.

Click to expand...

I too am at ACR and looking to begin my study of how to use HUD's... which setup are you using? Any advice on how/where to get started using HUD's?

I used to play a type of game called a MUD it was basically a text based MMORPG and I used client software with a mapper to make the game "easier" to play. Well the mapper actually turned into a massive crutch and when I tried to play other games where I couldn't use the mapper I quickly lost interest or blamed it on an impossible learning curve. I started using a hud back when they were new and I quickly realized I was doing to myself in poker what I had done back in my MUD playing days. So then I bought books and redoubled my efforts in doing my own math and keeping track of the pot(I played a lot of b&m) and today I am extremely glad that I did. The math in poker (initially) is simple and yes as you get into guesswork math it can get tricky, but it is worth knowing. Tomorrow if your online poke game of choice went hudless(mine already is i prefer unibet) would you still be able to play at the level you play with the hud? If the answer is no, then you have some work to do!

Keo