Can the HUD record at tables we are not playing ?

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Cokatoo56

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Hi !

I'm new to using a HUD. I find the user documentation very poor for HM2. Unless I didn't see well, all I found which would qualify for user documentation or tutorial is a bit of text in some FAQ.

Anyway, I'd like to know if HM2 will record what's happening at tables you are not playing, and that you have opened of course.
It seems to record well all hands for tables I'm at, but seems to record just 1 or 2 hands only for tables I have opened but not playing at.

Thanks !
 
RodneyC86

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You can't..well maybe some hacks can but that would be illegal.

They are curbing on what we call data mining
 
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Cokatoo56

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thanks !
oh that sucks ! I expected I could let a table of CG run for an hour or so so that I could get enough stats on the other players before joining the table. just like you would observe players playing in a casino before sitting at the table.
 
dmorris68

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No. That would be datamining and against the TOS of virtually all poker sites.

The sites have cracked down on this by no longer generating HH's when you aren't dealt into the hand, so there's nothing for your tracker to import.
 
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chauncey274

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I have poker tracker 4 and play at America's Cardroom and it does collect hands when I just have a table open. Some times in the past ill have my hud up playing two or three tables with one off to the side, on the wait list for it, and it begins collecting data even if it's another hour before I get to take a seat. I only opened it in the first place to see how everyone was playing, not with the intention of getting extra hand histories. With that said, Maybe every site is different, but I do know for a fact that america's cardroom allows for it.

EDIT: Maybe I should have said that they don't prevent it rather than they "allow for it". I have not checked and am unaware if it goes against their TOS.
 
dmorris68

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I have poker tracker 4 and play at America's Cardroom and it does collect hands when I just have a table open. Some times in the past ill have my hud up playing two or three tables with one off to the side, on the wait list for it, and it begins collecting data even if it's another hour before I get to take a seat. I only opened it in the first place to see how everyone was playing, not with the intention of getting extra hand histories. With that said, Maybe every site is different, but I do know for a fact that america's cardroom allows for it.

EDIT: Maybe I should have said that they don't prevent it rather than they "allow for it". I have not checked and am unaware if it goes against their TOS.
Check what's in the HH's though. I'll bet they're only partial HH's that contain what the public can see, i.e. action and shown cards only, which isn't terribly useful from a tracking/datamining purpose.
 
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chauncey274

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Check what's in the HH's though. I'll bet they're only partial HH's that contain what the public can see, i.e. action and shown cards only, which isn't terribly useful from a tracking/datamining purpose.
That's all you get from them when you are dealt in to a hand period. They never give you the players cards unless it goes to showdown.
 
dmorris68

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That's all you get from them when you are dealt in to a hand period. They never give you the players cards unless it goes to showdown.
When you're dealt into the hand, the HH contains cards for ALL players that go to showdown, regardless of whether they mucked. As an observer, if you get HH's at all, it will only contain the cards actually shown, usually the winner(s), and not the losers. Knowing all the losers' cards is extremely valuable information in completing their profile, otherwise you will only get stats on those who win at showdown or choose/are forced to show.

Also, I seem to recall awhile back that HM and I think PT cooperated with sites that did generate HH's for observers by only importing 1 or 2 hands without sitting, for purposes of table selection. I don't know if PT4 is doing that with WPN or not. I suppose I or someone could test the theory, although I almost never play on WPN anymore.
 
dj11

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Not playing much WPN are you D?

At WPN the only cards that are shown are the winning hand if it goes to showdown. Default is muck losing hands, so most players don't change that.

It is maddening, tracker or not. The particular way they do it makes me seldom (read never) seek out a ring game at WPN.
 
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chauncey274

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That's possible, I'd have to check. I don't think it gives me the actual cards for the losers, but it does give me every action from them. Of course, it would be more valuable to know their losing cards at showdown, but I still consider all the stats important with out that. I'm more worried personally about how often they three bet, fold to three bets, how often they c-bet, fold to c-bet etc... And it does give you that information on everyone.
 
dmorris68

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Not playing much WPN are you D?

At WPN the only cards that are shown are the winning hand if it goes to showdown. Default is muck losing hands, so most players don't change that.
Mucked showdown hands are in the HH, at least they used to be. I do recall the client not showing them to you, which was annoying, but with a HUD you can easily see them.

The bigger problem with trackers and WPN at the time was that WPN didn't provide seating and some other pertinent game info in the HH, which broke preferred seating and made proper tracking in MTTs very difficult on the software. I recall hearing that a recent update fixed that, but I don't particularly care for WPN software compared to Revolution (never thought I'd say that, lol) so don't play there outside of special occasions.
 
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SpookMBluffwell

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WOW

Hi !

I'm new to using a HUD. I find the user documentation very poor for HM2. Unless I didn't see well, all I found which would qualify for user documentation or tutorial is a bit of text in some FAQ.

Anyway, I'd like to know if HM2 will record what's happening at tables you are not playing, and that you have opened of course.
It seems to record well all hands for tables I'm at, but seems to record just 1 or 2 hands only for tables I have opened but not playing at.

Thanks !
Now THAT would really be something...just imagine opening 10 or 20 tables and just logging people daily whether your playing or not. At least at games your in it's semi realistic that you could make the mental notes yourself. Yea this would be definate cause to ban poker software if it started going that far!
 
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SpookMBluffwell

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Not

thanks !
oh that sucks ! I expected I could let a table of CG run for an hour or so so that I could get enough stats on the other players before joining the table. just like you would observe players playing in a casino before sitting at the table.

Yea this would be definate cause to ban poker software if it started going that far!
 
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SpookMBluffwell

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It's a little annoying that the Poker Calc shows players mucked hands...whats the point of having the muck optionm?
 
BluffMeAllIn

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I don't particularly care for WPN software compared to Revolution (never thought I'd say that, lol) so don't play there outside of special occasions.
+1, IMO also but BCP (ie WPN) drives me nuts haha. Revolution seems to have a pretty sound and stable software that doesn't make me want to burn it LOL
 
RDB

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Mucked showdown hands are in the HH, at least they used to be. I do recall the client not showing them to you, which was annoying, but with a HUD you can easily see them.

The bigger problem with trackers and WPN at the time was that WPN didn't provide seating and some other pertinent game info in the HH, which broke preferred seating and made proper tracking in MTTs very difficult on the software. I recall hearing that a recent update fixed that, but I don't particularly care for WPN software compared to Revolution (never thought I'd say that, lol) so don't play there outside of special occasions.

WPN writes observed hands. Since they write them we import them. They are the only network that still does this AFAIK. WPN only shows mucked cards (playing or observing) if the player chooses to show them at show down or the hand is all-in if I am recalling correctly. I play a few thousand hands of PLO per month and the HUD shows mucked cards much less often than almost every other site.

FTP does not write observed hands anymore or allow pre-fetching of any observed hands for table selection. Stars allows us to pre-fetch a few hands from memory for table selection purposes but they do not allow datamining.

WPN recently added preferred seating and HM2 and PT4 both support it. Our HM Cloud Alpha program doesn't yet support preferred seating at WPN.

Regards,

fozzy71
 
dmorris68

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Thanks fozzy. I could have sworn at one point mucked showdown hands were in the WPN HH, but as noted I haven't played there much in awhile so entirely likely that I'm remembering wrong.

I am surprised that in this day and age, WPN writes complete observed HH's though. Didn't think anyone did that anymore and would have thought any self-respecting site would have closed that easy datamining door ages ago. Do they not have a stated policy against datamining like everybody else?
 
dj11

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It may be closer to 25 hands, than the 1 or 2 hands mentioned early ITT. I know that is a limit that started with Stars, and was valid with PT3.
 
PokerTracker

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EDIT: Maybe I should have said that they don't prevent it rather than they "allow for it". I have not checked and am unaware if it goes against their TOS.

As Fozzy pointed out, both PT & HEM import Winning's observed hand histories because WPN provides them, this is considered a feature of WPN, and it is our jobs as software developers for the two biggest tracking tools available to support features that networks provide (assuming that support can be done of course, not everything can be supported). The important thing to note is that WPN management knows that dataming exists, and they know they could stop it if they disabled observed hand histories - since mucked hands are not available at showdown, it is our opinion that WPN management does not view datamining as a concern, last our legal team checked there is not issues with datamining in the TOS, and there should not be since WPN itself would be facilitating the ability to do this. Regardless of your position pro/con about datamining, you must respect WPN's management position on this topic, they take a much healthier approach to the issue than most other companies do.

Also, I seem to recall awhile back that HM and I think PT cooperated with sites that did generate HH's for observers by only importing 1 or 2 hands without sitting, for purposes of table selection. I don't know if PT4 is doing that with WPN or not. I suppose I or someone could test the theory, although I almost never play on WPN anymore.

This isn't quite true. We do not support hands from dataminers, we only import qualified hands from the networks that we support. If the network provides observed hand histories in any form, then we must allow support for those observed hand histories - for example pokerstars has observed hand histories saved in your local computer when you are seated at the table but sitting out - we therefore must import these hands (An observed hand has no HERO therefore it is easy to determine what is and is not observed). Datamined hands are observed hands, therefore if the network provides observed hands, and the dataminer has successfully spoofed the poker room's observed hand format, then PokerTracker cannot tell the difference and will import the hands. This is why tracking software is not to blame for datamining, the networks themselves are... we cannot police this issue, but the networks can, and in some cases they have such as PokerStar's shutdown of PTR.

Earlier Fozzy discussed PokerStars prefetching; PokerStars has given us written permission to pre-fetch the first 25 hands of a session to help place the HUD when first sitting down - this is the only network that allows that however, its a unique feature of Stars. We have legal permission to do this, I cannot speak on behalf of other companies however but we would not have done this without permission first. Our policy is to always follow the Terms of Service, and respect the wishes of the network via business agreements.

I should note that as a company we are VERY anti-datamining if the network does not allow datamining, but take a neutral stance if the network permits it - thats the network's choice to make, not ours.
 
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