How exactly are poker HUDs fair?

Lheticus

Lheticus

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I don't really condone the use of HUDs in poker, honestly. To me, it feels like it gives players a tool that no one would ever have in live poker unless they had an eidetic memory--instant recall of empirical data concerning how everyone who ever plays with you has played with you before. I say real players go with their guts and what they can remember with their own dang brains, and even more so how their opponents are playing right at the moment at that current table to take peoples' money. From what I know about HUDs, people who use them get access to an amount of hand history data on a level of detail that no one without an eidetic memory could access themselves.

This strikes me as a really quite unfair advantage. I welcome anyone who wishes to share their thoughts on what I've said--civilly, of course. (Although, that does seem to go without saying here, for once on the internet.)
 
BluffMeAllIn

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I'm sure I have responded to this exact same post idea a number of times, so I'll just say why compare the use of the HUD which is applicable to online only to playing in a live game? We all know they are both different beasts and that we can more easily recall information on a live player because of a face than is possible online due to just a screenname. In either case its always to be taken into consideration the table dynamic at the time of play but playing against someone live and remembering previous sessions is no different than having such information available online via use of a HUD.

Guess I responded anyway... chances are if you did a search on HUDs fair it would likely bring up a number of threads already existing with the exact same question/idea proposed.
 
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bernotas22

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If everyone can use it how is it unfair? a hud is one of the key tools to get reads on players tendencies and patterns since you can't really see them as you would face to face in live play
 
SeaRun

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If everyone can use it how is it unfair? >>>>SNIP

Unfair, no. But I don't like them either. It's making the game too ............... robotic, for lack of a better word. Taking the full human intervention out of it.
 
Lheticus

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If everyone can use it how is it unfair? a hud is one of the key tools to get reads on players tendencies and patterns since you can't really see them as you would face to face in live play

Everyone can't use it--last I checked, which admittedly might have changed, there are no freeware HUDs, and I'd imagine that even disregarding people like me who sadly can't even afford a cheaper HUD, there are quite a lot of poker players online who would simply not bother with such an application. Until poker websites actually have built-in HUDs in their software, it is impossible to claim that everyone truly has access to them--ergo, they are an unfair advantage.

As an aside, if there in fact is a freeware HUD out there, link me to it and I will both be extremely thankful and retract the statement that I started this thread with. ;)
 
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duggs

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Everyone can't use it--last I checked, which admittedly might have changed, there are no freeware HUDs, and I'd imagine that even disregarding people like me who sadly can't even afford a cheaper HUD, there are quite a lot of poker players online who would simply not bother with such an application. Until poker websites actually have built-in HUDs in their software, it is impossible to claim that everyone truly has access to them--ergo, they are an unfair advantage.

As an aside, if there in fact is a freeware HUD out there, link me to it and I will both be extremely thankful and retract the statement that I started this thread with. ;)

no, thats a really flimsy argument. poker forums/strategy are unfair since lots of people don't bother learning it, playing sober is an unfair advantage since people turn up drunk. having more money than someone else is an unfair advantage etc etc etc. fwiw in live play i could write down each hand manually pretty easily and still have time to chat and play poker, so its not as if its something that can't be done.

do you also want to ban playing more than 1 table? since you can only play 1 live.
 
Lheticus

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no, thats a really flimsy argument. poker forums/strategy are unfair since lots of people don't bother learning it, playing sober is an unfair advantage since people turn up drunk. having more money than someone else is an unfair advantage etc etc etc. fwiw in live play i could write down each hand manually pretty easily and still have time to chat and play poker, so its not as if its something that can't be done.

do you also want to ban playing more than 1 table? since you can only play 1 live.

All right, I think you've reconciled the concept now, thank you. :) I've gotten rather accustomed to games where pains are taken to make said game as 100% utterly equal fair as conceivably possible--I remember just a few months ago I made a tirade post on a video game forum rabble-rousing about how I'd just learned video-game fighting game tournaments, at high professional levels, go what I felt was neurotically far in eliminating every possible variable between tournament participants. The particular example I'd noted was how that in those high level tournaments, the tournament host organization actually provides fresh, new controllers for players to use to eliminate variances in controller wear that would be present if players brought their own controllers. I was under the mistaken impression that poker was at all trying to reach that level of equitability, and clearly from your examples about alcohol during play and money advantages, this is not only impossible, it is impractical in the view of virtually any poker room in America.

No wonder I've gravitated toward poker--I've a soft spot for underdog stories, and poker produces considerably more of them than any "fair" contest with mainstream appeal. Thank you for clearing things up for me--I really should have seen this myself, to be honest.
 
duggs

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yea well technically poker is perfectly fair, the rules apply to everyone one and everyone plays each position in the table, and gets dealt cards randomly. anything beyond that, i.e. game selection, software, hand analysis, strategy is all under what you would consider 'skill' in your video game analogy.

but yea you get the idea
 
wanderingthehall

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The line that is drawn between acceptable software use and unacceptable software use is the difference between whether you are simply being provided data that has been collected from hands you have actually played and have access to for free vs. the software giving advice and making the decisions for you.

There are some players that have tried HUDs and feel that they are distracting and make them too reliant on data. Then they tend to lost some edge if/when they play live. I've talked to several players that used a HUD but felt the need to wean themselves off because they were using it as a crutch and not developing their skills to the best of their abilities.

I fully intended on using some of my freeroll winnings to buy a HUD. I did a trial on one and it wasn't a good fit for me. I tried out another and I just wasn't motivated to mess with it. There was too much stuff in the way that was causing me to make simple mistakes because I was multi-tabling and it was covering important basic information like which players were still in the hand and who had raised what amount. I had a 30-day trial and stopped opening the HUD after a few days because I just found it annoying.

Plus you can take advantage of players using HUDs. If you know they are relying on their data, it is easy to mix up your play which is something a HUD won't be able to tell them you are doing.
 
duggs

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I really despise the take advantage of huds argument, what's a realistic example?
 
pwning666hellmuth

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well for 1 thing this is not live poker..and we as online players do not have tells to go off of like live poker, we cannot see a player face to face...so we have to get other info on players such as vpip% and pfr% fold to c-bet % and so on....and anyone can get a hud. So its very fair. so if you are not using one I suggest you do...bc most likely everyone else is!
 
loafes

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I really despise the take advantage of huds argument, what's a realistic example?

I'm sure there are tons of examples. I.e If I knew my stats would show me as a nit then I can bluff the player who has stats on me. Another might be that I c bet a high/low frequency so I chose to do the opposite in select hands. Another could be that my stats would give me a low 3 bet percentage so I 3 bet wide a couple if times vs the hud user.


I'm sure there are countless plausible examples, mostly they would just be cases of using your perceived image to your advantage knowing that a HUD user will alter the way they play against you based on what your stats are.
 
duggs

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I'm sure there are tons of examples. I.e If I knew my stats would show me as a nit then I can bluff the player who has stats on me. Another might be that I c bet a high/low frequency so I chose to do the opposite in select hands. Another could be that my stats would give me a low 3 bet percentage so I 3 bet wide a couple if times vs the hud user.


I'm sure there are countless plausible examples, mostly they would just be cases of using your perceived image to your advantage knowing that a HUD user will alter the way they play against you based on what your stats are.

i would contend that if you do this once or twice then you still aren't bluffing enough, i.e. if you are running as an 8/6 nit then opening a few hands light still isn't going to be bluffing 'enough' that they aren't still making the correct decision v your range.
 
steveiam

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Online is completely different to live play and the Hud is part of the tool kit an online player needs to succeed. Why would you want to play in a game of very small margins without some sort of advantage.
 
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There IS a free hud.

It's called FPDB, I tried it and it works but can be tricky to run.

Also, I play STTs on Full Tilt and the stats were screwed up, it only worked perfectly for cash games.
 
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