Do you think huds for Online Poker have ruined the essence of poker or made it better

PCK

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It helps you A LOT with decisions when you get refined calculations of betting patterns over time versus players, most people that use these tools will agree that you're crippled without software like Pokertracker or Hold'Em Manager. There's less use of your brain involved when used and in certain spots it's hands down automated play to maximize profit.

Do you think these tools in a way bastardized the game, or made it better by perfecting the essence of perfect poker play?
 
Sil3ntness

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I think it made poker better. Either you level up with the game or get crushed by the people taking full advantage of HUDs.

I think some of the pro live players are scared of the "internet wizards" because they have so much experience playing thousands of hands & experience of using an advanced HUD to increase their knowledge of the game.
 
EA2USN

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It has made online poker more difficult to beat. Imo, you need to be playing with a hud online even if your are at micro stakes its so much efficient for making decissions. But i think it has helped in live poker in that a lot of the younger internet kids are lost with out there crutch
 
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I do not belive huds help the middle to lower level players. They do not have the experice to use the data.
 
Landopope

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I do not belive huds help the middle to lower level players. They do not have the experice to use the data.
I definitely believe they do help some of us lower players. I've been playing for a few months so don't technically have the experience but a basic hud helps me tremendously at the micros.

As for OPs question I believe it would have been interesting to play in an era where huds weren't such a big deal. I feel the skill gap back then truly showed greater players.
 
Marcwantstowin

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I do not belive huds help the middle to lower level players. They do not have the experice to use the data.

I personally do not have a HUD, but I believe that they can improve a persons game whatever their level. However I also agree with rugby0 that lower level players may need longer to act on the information that HUDS produce and to learn "plays" to assist with their development. This comes with experience, as the older "star" players probably wouldn't know a HUD if it ran them over, but they do have the experience to know what to do while playing? Gl to you all.................................:D:D:D
 
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It helps you A LOT with decisions when you get refined calculations of betting patterns over time versus players, most people that use these tools will agree that you're crippled without software like Pokertracker or Hold'Em Manager. There's less use of your brain involved when used and in certain spots it's hands down automated play to maximize profit.

Do you think these tools in a way bastardized the game, or made it better by perfecting the essence of perfect poker play?
Bastardized as it reduces the element of skill by using external assistance, but if everyone's using them, you'd be silly not to. It evens the playing field somewhat, but skill will still ultimately prevail as none of these tools teach you how, when, and by how much to bluff like a professional.
 
suby_rafael

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While it might have made poker a tougher game to practice to most overall i think online poker has made the poker community wiser not to mention swell in numbers quicker than one could ever imagine.

I think still the involvement of the brain is not less as u may suspect. Also multi tabling aspect of it has come to show us the capabilities of the human brain which we could never explore playing live. So overall online poker has done more good deeds to poker than otherwise. It has also brought people in the community closer in terms of sharing thoughts and experiences.:icon_geek
 
PokerTracker

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It helps you A LOT with decisions when you get refined calculations of betting patterns over time versus players, most people that use these tools will agree that you're crippled without software like Pokertracker or Hold'Em Manager. There's less use of your brain involved when used and in certain spots it's hands down automated play to maximize profit.

We disagree. Just read any of our MANY posts on this topic in this forum, you will learn that we commonly discount the assumption that a HUD makes you a better player - that is simply not true in most scenarios. It is however true that a HUD can make you a more efficient player, it is a productivity tool that helps you retain a memory of your opponent's past play. In a live game you do not need a HUD because the human brain remember's your opponent's faces and tendencies; in an online game where you face countless new opponents and only have a screen name to go by the human brain's functionality is hampered - the HUD is designed to mimic how the brain works, and to help make the game more like a live game where you pay close attention to all of your opponent's tells, actions and reactions. The HUD helps with productivity, without a HUD multitabling is usually too hard for most players to do. Ironically, Shaun Deeb was one of our consulting pros when we designed PT4 - he was at one time known all over the world as being one of the best massive multitablers in the world; yet he did not use a HUD or any tools to accomplish this goal - just a laptop and a trackpad would allow him to play over 36 tables at the same time. Shaun is the rare exception to the rule however, most players need a HUD to be able to play many tables at the same time - which is why it is fitting that Shaun was such a big advocate for HUDs and personal tracking even though he himself did not need these tools. Its similar to trading on wallstreet, using a trading desk with technical analysis graphs will not make you a better trader - it only makes you more productive.


Do you think these tools in a way bastardized the game, or made it better by perfecting the essence of perfect poker play?

We are getting close to 15 years of PokerTracker history, it is safe to say that it is longer than almost everyone in this forum has been playing poker (including the person writing this post). PokerTracker has been around since the birth of online poker, it is a major part of the reason why online poker has been so successful. So if PokerTracker and Holdem Manager (the only two successful personal trackers with HUDs) bastardized the game, you should thank us for helping to make it so successful - without our help, overall poker liquidity would be much smaller and the game may not have been as successful... multitablers are what keep the industry alive and well as we know it today, and our software empowers these multitablers to provide more tables to play at, more options to choose from, and more rake for the online poker rooms to help the industry succeed. Don't believe us? Just take a look at the Nevada, Las Vegas market. That is the only market in the world that we do not support. Nevada is the home of poker world wide, yet the overall network liquidity is too small to be successful. Why? Very few multitablers = toughest games in the world for the equivalent stakes = players do not want to play. If wsop Nevada added hand histories and allowed HUDs (they are legal in Nevada contrary to the claims of some who do not understand the law in this state) then player liquidity would skyrocket overnight, and the games would not be as tough as they used to be.
 
arizoney

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well what a subject lol. the use of huds made online poker a different game its not true poker. but dont get me wrong its still poker i guess lol. but if you dont use one you are at a disadvantage and to be held at the need to buy that product its a little sketchy oh now this opinion is mine and no need to argue lol. this is one of the reasons i only play online poker as a hobby. with this being said i can also say that the huds and other online hand analytical programs are some of the best tools introduced to the poker community for increasing ones knowledge of the game. i could go on and on about the product and money end of this connection with the poker site themselves but not this day. remember have fun on the tables and gl gl with the adventure.
 
PokerTracker

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the use of huds made online poker a different game its not true poker.

Please see our post above, a HUD actually makes online poker more like "true" poker by mimicking the way the brain works in a live game. Online players are at a great disadvantage over live players, a HUD is a productivity tool - and nothing more.


but if you dont use one you are at a disadvantage

We are the makers of the first commercially available HUD, yet we have nevr made that claim - and frankly we think its ridiculous to think that a HUD user has an advantage of other players just because they use a HUD. The HUD user does not have an advantage, it only makes the user's decision process more productive and encourages quicker decisions while multitabling. You can accomplish the same results with meticulous notes if you do not wish to use a HUD. The HUD is 100% optional - its the tracker where the real gold is found because you can learn to fix your leaks and improve your game with the use of a tracker after the game is done.

with this being said i can also say that the huds and other online hand analytical programs are some of the best tools introduced to the poker community for increasing ones knowledge of the game.

We couldn't have said that better ourselves, we certainly agree with this statement.
 
EA2USN

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We are getting close to 15 years of PokerTracker history, it is safe to say that it is longer than almost everyone in this forum has been playing poker (including the person writing this post). PokerTracker has been around since the birth of online poker, it is a major part of the reason why online poker has been so successful.

I have playing poker since the 70's. Then got into playing Texas holdem online 2000/2001 time frame. I have been a loyal user of Poker Tacker since May of 2008. I have used and tried all the poker tracking software out there and I feel Poker tracker is the best for me. It has vastly improved my game through the use of HUD and analysis of my hands and sessions through the data base, also the leak tracker function within the PT4 version has helped immensely.

I Also have been using my phone and now as of last few weeks a tablet while playing live poker to take notes on players, and i count and figure out their cruciale stats ie. VIP, Preflop Raise%, Cbet%, and note how aggressive they are by tracking calls vs raise and folds.

If the official Poker Tracker rep reads this, is there anything in the works that could used on mobile devices for imputing live game stats?
 
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credsfan03

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lol at huds making online poker more realistic. In live poker you dont have anywhere near as much information as a hud allows. If anythings huds have ruined online poker by practically guaranteeing casual players that they wont make money vs all of the regs who take advantage of the software that is out there. This forces the casual player to either stop wasting money knowing they will continue to lose or to take the steps to get better which greatly increases the average level of play in the game.
 
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I have used a hud for quite some time. I know some people who play without one and do very well. I was watching some of Jon Little's videos and he typically kicked butt without a HUD. He would use HEM to go over his hands when he had questions. So I think it is the skill of the player to a larger degree vs. having a HUD.

It cannot replace your brain. You have to figure out based on the action, do you believe the villains story or not. Yes, the hud can give you some info on past behavior. But that is no guarantee of future actions. Even fish get AA/KK from time to time. C'est le poker!
 
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