Do I really need Holdem software to beat the game

I am an absolute beginner, played around 10,000 hands for play money, because I'm tight in the literal sense, I don't want to risk real money before I'm good enough. My question, does a beginner need such software to have a chance of beating the game online or is it still possible to develop a winning poker instinct the old skool way without the additional HUD stuff.

YardMan said:

I am an absolute beginner, played around 10,000 hands for play money, because I'm tight in the literal sense, I don't want to risk real money before I'm good enough. My question, does a beginner need such software to have a chance of beating the game online or is it still possible to develop a winning poker instinct the old skool way without the additional HUD stuff.

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To beat the game no. To increase your winnings online you absolutely need them. Be aware that the winning players are not the ones that only know how to use the softare. The winning ones are the players that know how to play poker. Actually i do not think that players that play at the highest stakes possible are using it because the field is so small. HEM is just winning you time that you can use to play the game. Without HEM you will be spending time taking a lot of notes .

It is definitley not a neccessity to use a HUD to beat the game I have done so. However it will increase your winnings and winrate 100%. When i got a HUD the benefit was so clear to me straight away and now I wouldnt want to load up a session without it. As it is just so valuable in terms of extra money earned.

YardMan said:

because I'm tight in the literal sense

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you don't need HEM, you need lube.

I would tell you to 100% NOT get software to 'help' your game....yet.

You need experience. You need to understand the game, learn. Using a HUD or software has a great chance at stunting this growth because you will start to rely on looking at numbers instead of learning the game.

Maybe, MAYBE use it to check on your stats to try and plug holes...but even that you need to learn to work on.

IMHO, starting out on the game using software would be horrible for you in the long run. Play. Learn. Software will not teach you poker.

Cheers

BelgoSuisse said:

you don't need HEM, you need lube.

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giggity

i regret i got HUD software to early. reading everywhere that it would be best first later i found out it wasent, at least not for me im with the above poster as well (Vollycat)

YardMan said:

. My question, does a beginner need such software to have a chance of beating the game online

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Absolutely not!

Vollycat said:

I would tell you to 100% NOT get software to 'help' your game....yet.

You need experience. You need to understand the game, learn. Using a HUD or software has a great chance at stunting this growth because you will start to rely on looking at numbers instead of learning the game.

Maybe, MAYBE use it to check on your stats to try and plug holes...but even that you need to learn to work on.

IMHO, starting out on the game using software would be horrible for you in the long run. Play. Learn. Software will not teach you poker.

Cheers

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this ^

BelgoSuisse said:

you don't need HEM, you need lube.

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Believe this guy here ^ (he has ALOT of experience.... which you will come to know once you've been around for awhile & read some of his posts)

Thank you all for your replies and help on here.

For mtt´s you don´t need these programs, a lot of top players don´t use it.

I don't use them and don't want to.

You seem to be approaching tracker software from the commonly held but largely incorrect notion that the main benefit is all about the HUD and getting stats on your opponents. And that this somehow makes a bad player into a good player.

Not so. At all.

Absolutely a HUD can be useful once you know how to interpret stats properly (typically not something a beginner can do effectively anyway). But a HUD alone won't turn a bad player into a good one. By far the greatest benefit to a beginning player is the self-analysis it provides you. The ROI would be so great that IMO it's a no-brainer even for micro-stakes players. A tracker costs less than 4BI's at 25NL and if used to plug even one leak, you would likely recoup that cost in only a session or two. Maybe I'd pass if you're playing 2NL as what you learn is less effectively applied at that level, or if you're just a recreational player who spews BI's just for entertainment and really has no desire to put in the work required to become a good player. But for players who want to win and move up at 10NL+ and say $5+ SNGs/MTTs you should be seriously considering it, provided you're willing to put forth the effort to use it properly.

That said, of course you don't need them to play good poker or become a winning player, just like you don't need power tools to build a house. But the results sure come quicker. It's a tool that's perfectly legal and available to you and every other player. Whether or not you choose to use it is up to you, but you're putting yourself at a disadvantage.

Daniel72 said:

For mtt´s you don´t need these programs, a lot of top players don´t use it.

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Totally not true. A lot of top players DO use them, even for MTTs. Witness nearly all coaches and many pros -- but then again when you're a professional MTT grinder or nosebleed player a HUD/tracker has little to offer you compared to the rest of us mere mortals. At that level there are few if any leaks to find, and a smaller player pool where you have history and better reads on players. Even so, a lot of pros use them for tax and record-keeping purposes if nothing else. It beats the hell out of keeping track of wins/losses by hand.

jolubman said:

I don't use them and don't want to.

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I'm all for personal choice, but I sense that your reasoning is misguided, as is for most that speak out against trackers, i.e. the common "But it's cheating!!!! You can't use one live!!!!" excuses that comes from ignorance of knowing exactly what trackers provide for you.

Again, if you choose not to use the tools available to better your game, that's up to you, but you're choosing to disadvantage yourself and I don't get the logic behind that.

For cash games its a great tool. I remember a interview by mediocrepokerradio with Brian "bfizz11" Fite, one of the best mtt / sng players, there he said that he don´t use these software, but he is a big note maker and i have heard it also in other interviews (maybe it was shaundeeb and thelipofund, but i don´t remember exactly).

Daniel72 said:

For cash games its a great tool. I remember a interview by mediocrepokerradio with Brian "bfizz11" Fite, one of the best mtt / sng players, there he said that he don´t use these software, but he is a big note maker and i have heard it also in other interviews (maybe it was shaundeeb and thelipofund, but i don´t remember exactly).

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So you've heard 1 or 2 top MTT players say they don't, and you extrapolate that top pros don't use software? Seriously? As I said, the cream of the crop has little use for them. Unless OP, yourself, or anyone else in this thread are at that level, I fail to see the relevance of your point. I can assure you that on their way to the top, online pros used software. I know Deeb did at one point, but he got to he level of being a machine and no longer needed it. Tom Dwan used to use HEM, but no longer needs it. Why would he, other than maybe for book keeping purposes.

I've heard from more MTT pros that use software than those who do not. Have you never watched coaching videos by top MTT players? How many didn't have a HUD running? I'm an admin on a coaching site forum, do you care to bet on how many of our MTT coaches run a HUD?

YardMan said:

I am an absolute beginner, played around 10,000 hands for play money, because I'm tight in the literal sense, I don't want to risk real money before I'm good enough. My question, does a beginner need such software to have a chance of beating the game online or is it still possible to develop a winning poker instinct the old skool way without the additional HUD stuff.

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When I was around 2-3 months total begginer and mostly already moved to only hunt freerolls at FTP, stoped with the play money after expierncieng some poker.

I then discovered the software, and It really got me confused at first, all the new terms VPIP, PFR, Aggresiiopn Factor, Ag Fq....
but after awhile it improved my game hugely, I will suggest you to dive into the sfotware and study how to get all the info you need to maximize your profits.

at freerolls it realy helps when you MTT and doesnt realy paying attention to the table, the software after 10 hands give you pretty accurate image of the freeroll table, who is just SIT OUTER, who realy tight/good player, and who is just a noob that always raise all in, who is a noob calling machine, and who is a sneaky noob. :tee:

now days I almost doesn't relay or pay much attention to the software.

If you are serious about the game, it makes sense to use all of the 'tools' available.
I don't use HUD's etc., but I've not been playing 'seriously' since BF, but now that FT is coming back, I may start to think about trackers a bit more.
I never play cash games, just sng and mtt.
Is tracker software as important in mtt and sng games as it is in cash games?
My enthusiasm is re-kindled after the great news on 'Terrific Tuesday'

A tracker (HEM or PT) is really useful if you want to IMPROVE your game.
You can use it as you play but what is really good is to be able to look back
and see where you made mistakes, are weak and change your game.

Just my 2¢

Im getting to the point where i think i need it for some of the donkaments where I see the sam guys and dont have notes. You definitley need to learn the game on your own first and know when to apply the HUD data. Like when you suspect a bluff - and see a weird big bet (i.e. what are the odds hes bluffing? What's hios range if its a semi-bluff?) etc...

tcummo said:

I never play cash games, just sng and mtt.
Is tracker software as important in mtt and sng games as it is in cash games?

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A tracker is certainly useful for all game types, although I'd say at different degrees.

The tracker part for self-analysis is equally helpful IMO no matter what your game type. This is where you're going to find your immediate ROI as a beginner/intermediate player, rather than from seeing opponent stats.

The HUD part (opponent stats) is probably most beneficial for cash, followed closely by SNG's (where I really mean STTs). From a pure stats perspective they're comparably less useful for MTTs simply because the fields are large and you're much less likely to sit with the same players often enough to build any decent stats. That's not to say they're not useful in MTTs at all -- they certainly are, just not to the degree of cash or STTs

The other aspect where HUDs are commonplace is with multi-tabling. Even with MTTs, where you won't have enough sample size on many players for some stats to converge into meaningful numbers, having basic stats that do converge pretty quickly (VPIP, PFR, CBET, FCBET, etc.) are immensely useful when you're making decisions in seconds across many tables.

So, in summary, the tracker/HUD total package is going to be helpful no matter what types of games you play, or what volume, assuming you want to become a winning player and move up in stakes and number of tables. If you're a total recreational player who plays one table a day at penny stakes and never aspires to do more, then its value to you is probably questionable. However most people who bother to join a poker forum and participate in a discussion like this are presumably not of the latter type.

But again, I'll reiterate -- installing a tracker/HUD will not do anything by itself. You have to put in the effort to learn how to use it effectively. First in analysing your own game, then in evaluating opponent stats. If you're not willing to dig in and use it properly, then you're wasting your money.

BelgoSuisse said:

you don't need HEM, you need lube.

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That's what she said.

Thank you all again for your help and advise.

For sure there are players that don't use any software. And i definitely wouldn't say it is necessary. The first 2 pieces of software i purchased when starting to learn were PT3 and SNG Wizard. The initial appeal of something like Poker Tracker , was just tracking my own progress, graphs, etc. i started with the most basic HUD, and as i learned more about stats and how to interpret them started adding more things that i felt were important. At first was only playing 1 or 2 tables, so was easier to pay attention to the action, but as you start playing more tables, a HUD can be pretty helpful.

I'm a big fan of software, anything that can help me learn, or make things easier are great. I'd say read the forums and learn your stats and how to interpret them. i experimented with all kinds of HUD's, custom stats, and finally found 2 that make sense to me and i understand.
As far as self analysis, something like Leakbuster is great for learning your optimal stat ranges. It has been one of the best things i have purchased for learning cash games. i started with a million leaks, but it has helped me eliminate alot of them. Still alot of work to do, but it is a cool program and has some great content.

So, i'd say maybe do a couple of the free trials for HM2 or PT3/PT4, maybe if nothing else at first to chart your progress, and see which program if either you like better. you can always turn off the HUD feature, or just start with something really basic like VPIP/PFR and AF.

Good luck!