You make the play

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kardmania

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You make the play

$60 10 man live game played on PokerPro table. 1500 starting chips
Turbo Blinds

Truly card dead but stole where I could but with blinds at $120/60 + $5 ante down to $480 chips but only 4 players remained.

I managed to dodge bullets and slowly started to win a few pots knocking out the 4th place combatant.


Pay out structure $355 for 1st and $155 for 2nd place the balance is house rake.

Opponent chip stacks Player A has 5500 chips, Player B has 4400, and I am sitting with 4100 chips. I offer up a three way chop. Player B accepts the chop and Player A sits silent. Several hands pass when the SB and BB get into the pot for the minimum and the board flops: 9D, 7D, and 5D. Player A pushes all in and Player B calls. Player A turns over 10D and 6D and Player B reveals the JD and QD. No improvement.

Several more hands are played with no significant changes.

These games are typically over in an hour. We are now near the 2 hour mark. Blinds are 1200/ 600 and antes are $100.

Player A is now down to $1800, Player B has $7200, and I am sitting with 6000 chips. I am in the small blind and the best hand I have looked at is AK o/s.

Player A folds and is sitting with $1100 chips, Player B raises $1200 chips and I look down at QQ.

What is the correct play?
 
lektrikguy

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I'm confused...

A is on the button? You're in SB and B raised? Did you call in SB? If A folded he must be on the button-but how did B raise?
 
Weregoat

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I believe those were two seperate hands. A is the BTN, B the SB, hero is the BB.

I don't know my ICM, but I'd jam there, expect to get called by AJ and AT and the likes, or folded to. If you win the hand you're a huge favorite to win the tournament, or you can either call or fold. If you fold here, the BTN is all in preflop next hand regardless. You have several options, but you'd need somebody more well versed in ICM. Perhaps post in tournament hands to get a better respons, and clean up the post so it's not so confusing
 
atlantafalcons0

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I believe those were two seperate hands. A is the BTN, B the SB, hero is the BB.

I don't know my ICM, but I'd jam there, expect to get called by AJ and AT and the likes, or folded to. If you win the hand you're a huge favorite to win the tournament, or you can either call or fold. If you fold here, the BTN is all in preflop next hand regardless. You have several options, but you'd need somebody more well versed in ICM. Perhaps post in tournament hands to get a better respons, and clean up the post so it's not so confusing

I like this, I think you just shove three handed with QQ.
 
Weregoat

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I like this, I think you just shove three handed with QQ.

Right. I'm shoving here all the time unless I think I have a huge edge over the original raiser and he has me beat.

So I've got to be a better player than him, and have some sort of sick ungodly read.

We'd be going to headsup and we wouldn't be a favorite.

Obv villain flips over KK in this hand.
 
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kardmania

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Correction

Correction I probably should not have composed this late night trying to read my dull pencil notes

Player A is now down to $1800, Player B has $7200, and I am sitting with 6000 chips. I am in the big blind and the best hand I have looked at is AK o/s.

Player A folds and is sitting with $1700 chips, Player B raises $1200 chips and I look down at QQ.

What is the correct play?
 
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bigjoker66

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This is so player dependent. You are at a $60 live sng. No telling what he has. How much does 0 vs 155 vs 355 mean to you? What is you comfort with variance? High tolerance would be a push low is a fold.

Do you want to call and set mine a minraise with QQ for 20%of your stack?

Do you want to push and chance him having KK or AA or AK? What do you thing he will call a push with?

Player A does not have enough for 1 round of blinds and will have 70% of his chips in blind next hand.

I would say fold, but I'm a wimp, and you probably wouldn't be asking if you won the hand.
 
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kardmania

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I have posted this sevaral spots and its interesting that the responses indicate that people just do not play live much anymore.
 
NeverFold

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I have posted this sevaral spots and its interesting that the responses indicate that people just do not play live much anymore.

You are right. People also much play now in online.
 
lektrikguy

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OK-I got it now. You can fold and let him blind out, but if he catches a hand or 2 before you know it, you're the short stack. Push it.
 
dmorris68

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In this situation, I don't see much difference between live and online, other than the brutal 15% rake. AFAIC, QQ is an auto-shove 3-way unless you just have a soul read on villain having KK+/AK. But in this payout structure where 3rd gets zilch and villain has you covered, then I wouldn't necessarily mind a fold since the other player is out in the next 2 hands unless he catches miracle cards.
 
atlantafalcons0

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But in this payout structure where 3rd gets zilch and villain has you covered, then I wouldn't necessarily mind a fold since the other player is out in the next 2 hands unless he catches miracle cards.

But you can win the tournament right here + QQ three handed.
 
dmorris68

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But you can win the tournament right here + QQ three handed.
It's a toss-up, depending on your bubble style. QQ has a lot of equity here but it's hardly invincible, especially if villain holds an overcard. Like I said I would tend to shove here without much thought, but can also understand the laydown given that you'd be all but guaranteed to cash. If you shove and lose, you've just bubbled with nothing to show for it. Some would prefer to take the near lock on 2nd before putting it all on the line for 1st, while others would be fine going all-or-nothing with QQ here. I can certainly see both sides.
 
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If online I shove, a live game I'd reraise up to 3K.

I would expect the fold almost every time as my reraise screams a high pair. If the villain raises or calls and bets out a bad flop I can still fold and have about the same chance of finishing second as if I'd folded. If the villain is stealing then the 3K will have the same effect as the shove, if they call the shove you can guarantee AA or KK: would they risk being auto-allin next hand with a low pair or drawing hand?

All of the above depends on my reads and my own image etc.
 
et1961

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play on!

I really don't know if this is statistically or mathamatically correct, but I would definitely call. When down to three players I consider almost any pocket pair a strong hand. especially when up against one other player. If you lose the hand, I would still consider it a good call.
 
appaz86

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If online I shove, a live game I'd reraise up to 3K.

I would expect the fold almost every time as my reraise screams a high pair. If the villain raises or calls and bets out a bad flop I can still fold and have about the same chance of finishing second as if I'd folded. If the villain is stealing then the 3K will have the same effect as the shove, if they call the shove you can guarantee AA or KK: would they risk being auto-allin next hand with a low pair or drawing hand?

All of the above depends on my reads and my own image etc.

this!

also play to win not for 2nd! you have QQ 3 handed, folding is in NO WAY an option

its either shove or re-raise, if you re-raise he MAY shove over the top, but i doubt it, if he does i think you have to call either way and try and avoid that one over card (i dont think he's got AA or KK or even AK) he may even have a worse pocket pair

shove or re-raise, play to win it all
 
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...its either shove or re-raise, if you re-raise he MAY shove over the top, but i doubt it, if he does i think you have to call ...

If we intend to call the villain's shove then we should shove ourselves unless we think we are trapping a smaller pair.
 
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The key advantage of playing live versus playing on the net is the ability to make reads and act on your conclusions.

As stated earlier the raiser’s profile was tight aggressive. His body language told me two things that he was strong but he did not want a call. When I asked him if he wanted a call, he remained silent but his body language reaffirmed my initial read.

I ran thru the possible hands that he might be raising with:

AA, KK I considered possible but dubious under 5%
AK I actually felt that this was a likely possibility probably O/S 20%
AQ, AJ, A10 each 5%’ers along with A rag

JJ, 10 10, 10%er’s
99, 88, 77, J10, 10 9, 5%er’s

After considering these assumptions, the only hand I really needed to fear was the AK race. I thought for a few seconds about the fact that doing nothing should assure me of a cash. However, walking thru the backdoor I usually manage to step in the quicksand. When you let your opportunities escape without benefits the poker lords do have a tendency to slap you back down.

So I shoved.

 
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Johnnybmoto

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Shovings really the only option, you need to be playing to win, not to cash.

3 handed a raise is such a huge range of hands, anywhere from 22+ A2+ KT+ etc. odds are you will be in a 70/30 situation or have him absolutely crushed.
 
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The_Pup

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The key advantage of playing live versus playing on the net is the ability to make reads and act on your conclusions.

As stated earlier the raiser’s profile was tight aggressive. His body language told me two things that he was strong but he did not want a call. When I asked him if he wanted a call, he remained silent but his body language reaffirmed my initial read.

I ran thru the possible hands that he might be raising with:

AA, KK I considered possible but dubious under 5%
AK I actually felt that this was a likely possibility probably O/S 20%
AQ, AJ, A10 each 5%’ers along with A rag

JJ, 10 10, 10%er’s
99, 88, 77, J10, 10 9, 5%er’s

After considering these assumptions, the only hand I really needed to fear was the AK race. I thought for a few seconds about the fact that doing nothing should assure me of a cash. However, walking thru the backdoor I usually manage to step in the quicksand. When you let your opportunities escape without benefits the poker lords do have a tendency to slap you back down.

So I shoved.

And...
 
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I cant let the smallstack take my payout, although 2nd place pays so little. U just cant throw money away in that spot. U gotta focus more on chip stacks rather than ur hand in that instance. Smallstack is gonna be at risk reeeal soon with those blinds. If the chip stacks were more even out u could play that qq more aggressively and take more chances but not like the way u described it.

I mean put urself in the place of the smallstack. I would pray the 2 big stacks get greedy and play a big pot and 1 of em gives me their payout.

With that payout id fold it in that spot and focus on getting the small stack outta there before thinking about 1st. u gotta get the small stack out while avoiding playing a big pot with the other big stack. From what u typed earlier, the other big stack seemed reasonable, and would be interested in getting rid of the smallstack out also and would take it easy on u when that smallstack is at risk.



that payout is awful. It’s the norm for lo buyin live sngs where I am but still. . . its awful, lolol. Its basically a winner take all. Even with the payout the way it is, u gotta avoid the big stack and get into the money before worrying about 1st. I reeeally dont like a shove there because its not really gonna change the chip difference there between u and the other big stack if they fold and if u get called ur giving the smallstack a chance to take ur payout.
 
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so your gonna pass up a premium holding 3 handed just beacause there's a possibility you might limp you way into the money. What happens when the shortstack doubles up a time or two? You'll be praying for QQ's then.
 
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