Would you have been able to lay this hand down?

vegasjj

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This is a bit of feeling sorry for myself, as well as trying to figure out how "abnormal" is my bad play?

- I hate KK - something I stated a million times - it is a hand that has and is causing me more pain than any other.

- I tried a few satellites to get in the $5 MM game unsuccessfully, but decided to play anyway. Registered 15 minutes late (I was busy in the kitchen)

- This was the second hand that was dealt to me.

- I KNEW after turn bet - with near certainty that the opponent had me beat - (was already deeply worried after flop),

BUT

JUST COULD NOT LAY IT DOWN - JUST COULD NOT

QUESTION:
Can you tell me honestly - how likely if at all may you make the same mistake just because of the "frame of mind you are in"

PokerStars - $5+$0.50|20/40 NL - Holdem - 9 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

SB: 4,325
BB: 11,843
UTG: 3,419
UTG+1: 5,189
MP: 5,200
Hero (MP+1): 5,000
MP+2: 3,264
CO: 4,910
BTN: 5,765

SB posts SB 20, BB posts BB 40

Pre Flop: (pot: 60) Hero has K K

fold, fold, fold, Hero raises to 100, fold, fold, BTN calls 100, fold, fold

Flop: (260, 2 players) 7 2 T
Hero bets 240, BTN calls 240

Turn: (740, 2 players) 9
Hero bets 520, BTN raises to 1,040, Hero raises to 4,660 and is all-in, BTN calls 3,620

River: (10,060, 2 players) 6

Hero shows K K (One Pair, Kings) (Pre 81%, Flop 9%, Turn 5%)
BTN shows T T (Three of a Kind, Tens) (Pre 19%, Flop 91%, Turn 95%)
BTN wins 10,060
 
T

thatgreekdude

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i'd rather just flat the turn and then re-evaluate and maybe find a fold on the river.
 
JPoling

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Why are you shoving on a re-raise? We could of just called on turn, or if felt beat, fudge it. Fold them and wait for better oppurtunity. Also, only betting 2.5BB with KK pre-flop?
 
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williamwantsfreeroll

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1 Comment 1 Hint.
It's normal for a bad player its abnormal for a great player.
And my hint to you is pay more peace in mind to the community cards rather your own personal hand. Because you need to disengage that you have a good starting hand and just realize the reality that your all in on a pair? NO pair and NO MATTER THE CIRCUMSTANCE OF HOW YOU OBTAINED THE PAIR should you bet more than a minimal percentage of your chips. It's ok to throw in a pair winning hand or not.... there will be better hands down the road
 
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joe777

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3bet on the turn obviously mean monster hand.I would considered folding on the spot.
 
dino

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in that position I would not re-raise but just call and see it.
Since your (imho) KK already lost it to probably flush or set, and after his re-raise i would be more carefull and probably lay it down, waiting for next round.
I know it's really hard to lay down KK or AA but in your situation I would, and survive for next round.

Just my $.02 vegas
 
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hffjd2000

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Agree.

I would just call on the turn and see whats his next move on the river and evaluate from there.
 
vegasjj

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I think the honest answer to my question is the one below :eek:
It's normal for a bad player its abnormal for a great player.

Thank you all for the answers.

I really did know in my bones that I am beat. Had I been in a "good head space" most likely I would have said (*&^^**85# and folded it.

HOWEVER - I do find myself - unfortunately more often then I like to admit - in a situation where my emotions just dictate.
This happens mostly when I am getting bet beats one after the other - no break in between - about 5+ of them, or losing streaks for many days, without even as much as a few won pots. Also I have a standing problem with KK, it just is a hand that punishes me no matter what I do (please disregard the hand we are discussing), so at some point I do what I just did here:
Literally - I have in my head something like this: OK you dam #$#% luck, you want to screw me again - then here.... go for it!
How stupid is that?? Do you ever feel like it??
 
teepack

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If you are thinking like that, you need to take a break from it and clear your head.
 
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thatgreekdude

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I think the honest answer to my question is the one below :eek:


Thank you all for the answers.

I really did know in my bones that I am beat. Had I been in a "good head space" most likely I would have said (*&^^**85# and folded it.

HOWEVER - I do find myself - unfortunately more often then I like to admit - in a situation where my emotions just dictate.
This happens mostly when I am getting bet beats one after the other - no break in between - about 5+ of them, or losing streaks for many days, without even as much as a few won pots. Also I have a standing problem with KK, it just is a hand that punishes me no matter what I do (please disregard the hand we are discussing), so at some point I do what I just did here:
Literally - I have in my head something like this: OK you dam #$#% luck, you want to screw me again - then here.... go for it!
How stupid is that?? Do you ever feel like it??

The sooner you ditch emotions in poker, the sooner you'll be playing much better, I suffered terribly in my first few months I thought I had the god given right to win every hand I played and I couldn't take a beat, I'd get angry and frustrated and make moves like this hand, I'll lose hand after hand nowadays to bad beats and I'll barely flinch because I know it's inevitable, it's hard to concentrate when you're full of emotion, I even read in Jared Tendlers book that it's impossible to be able to focus on actually playing good poker while you're filled up with emotions.
 
danprince10

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cry fold the turn raise, its a set or straight every time
 
dino

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It's not uncommon even for good player like you to play bad like that and have bad streak for few days.
I would recommend to take a break of day-two and relax.
Chill out.
And then hit it again.
Keep your calm and keep your head up.

Try to go back to roots, and play ABC poker for a few days.

Anyway, wish you good luck.

I think the honest answer to my question is the one below :eek:


Thank you all for the answers.

I really did know in my bones that I am beat. Had I been in a "good head space" most likely I would have said (*&^^**85# and folded it.

HOWEVER - I do find myself - unfortunately more often then I like to admit - in a situation where my emotions just dictate.
This happens mostly when I am getting bet beats one after the other - no break in between - about 5+ of them, or losing streaks for many days, without even as much as a few won pots. Also I have a standing problem with KK, it just is a hand that punishes me no matter what I do (please disregard the hand we are discussing), so at some point I do what I just did here:
Literally - I have in my head something like this: OK you dam #$#% luck, you want to screw me again - then here.... go for it!
How stupid is that?? Do you ever feel like it??
 
sj_pi

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The fact that your opponent called the raise of 240 should have been an indication that the Villain has something that's worthy of play.

Pair v/s Pair is always tricky and can swing pretty much any way.

In all honesty, I would lay down the hand in such a situation very VERY rarely when I have a clear tell.

In this case, the villain was setting a trap by flat calling.
Another factor is that they had position over you.

Preflop raise of 2.5x with KK is pretty weak too I guess.
Anyone with TT facing a 2.5x raise preflop is an easy call.
You are 'giving' them odds to make the call.
 
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DoloBrolo

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Honestly I find myself playing KK weaker than I should usually, but in a situation like this I would probably make the laydown on the raise.
 
Blu2323

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Since the player was cold calling you preflop its hard to put them on say AA-QQ because they would more than likely repop the pot to protect their hand. Think about it if i just cold call you on the button with AA-JJ i am risking the SB and BB coming in to crack my premium hand. AA is good but not so good in a 4 way pot. So you could say that most hands people call you down with in that position with that type of situation is going to be a mid to small pair or something along the lines as (A10s-AQs) I would think AK or AQs would repop the pot too but you never know :) To be honest you are giving this guy or girl the right price to call with a lot of different hands J10s ect a lot of good draw hands could come in and see a cheap flop to crack a good hand. Plus you are out of position to this player further more inviting disaster . If i was you with the KK and made the same raise I would look at the 7 2 Tboard and feel very ahead of the other player. No flush draws no real straight draw out there if so its a gut shot. Sets are always a threat but with you having such a good hand you would need to build the pot and try to feel out you opponents hand. So you make a sizable bet post flop...I think there was about what 260 in the pot before you bet the 240...that is a big bet in relation to the pot. you would think they would have something to be able to call such a bet. At this point with the way you bet the hand if I'm the villain i would put you on air or a big pair...AK-AJ or JJ-AA. But after they make the 3bet you know that they must have something. Most players are not going to be able to bluff that spot. Most of the time you see the big bluffs of really wet boards where they can have a large amount of combos that would be scary to you. But on this board what are they really drawing to or have? what are they calling a almost pot size bet with? why would they 3bet me in this spot? could they have AA,QQ or JJ you would assume a 3bet preflop would have came about. The only other thing i could see someone calling with and not 3beting pre would be A10. So with out rambling to much I would not have folded KK in that spot, if they hit the set then they have me. All to often you will be facing a weaker hand like JJ or even A10.
 
suby_rafael

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Well it's easier said than done but if one thinks that the villain here is a relatively tight player then we should try and find a fold to the turn raise. Or the next best thing if we are unsure is to flat the raise which was just minimum and evaluate on the river which we would be checking to the villain.

Just think for a moment assuming villain is a relatively tight player and we have bet two streets of large value bets. The raise on the turn lets me think of two possibilities.

1. We have one pair although an over pair but looks like villain has one pair beat.
2. Villain has one pair - could be any pair on board, an underpair or an overpair smaller than ours and is raising to find out the strength of his hand by putting us under a bit of a spot.

Therefore if we can figure out the situation and guess correctly possibility no.1 then it makes sense to fold our pair of kings right there itself and save chips.
If we are not sure or think it has to be possibility no.2 then it makes sense to flat the min raise and evaluate on the river(tending towards checking and folding to a decent bet size on river). This is only because we are not sure whether villain us beat. However if we think it's just a weak raise to find himself out about his hand strength and that our hand is good then it makes sense to shove right there.:cool:
 
Poker Orifice

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Post your hand history differently & I'd bet that some of these Helmuth's would answer it differently.
 
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RamdeeBen

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Hating KK means you're probably doing things wrong..my eyes light up every time I get this hand.

Anyway, as with the hand we're over 100bb deep. Given his min raise on the turn I'd be very concerned that we beat nothing but a complete bluff which is likely not the case. At best we are probably up against two pair. Not sure I could lay it down on the turn given the price and potential chance he is just bluff raising and will likely give up river if we call.

I'd probably call turn and evaluate the river, probably just fold river unless we improve. Definitely not optimal shoving though given stack sizes.
 
vegasjj

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Hating KK means you're probably doing things wrong..my eyes light up every time I get this hand.

That is for sure correct. I see the KK and I totally can predict that I will lose, but "refuse" to play the hand "scared" or cautious. :( With that I am sure I am feeding KK to be my enemy - but I just have a terrible time trying to overcome my reaction.

PS. In case you wondering - Yes I have laid down KK a few times - but certainly not often enough.
 
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shakuhashi

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well, when u decide not to respect the turnraise, u win against a bluff or face twopair a straight or a set for sure, no reason to stick around with a pair only...
 
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shakuhashi

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unless u have a read, that the guy is a maniac, u should fold or flat the turn...
 
Himanshu

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when someone calls our raise when we are holding pocket kings or even aces and we do not flop a set its best to check to your opponent or opponents and see where they are at it also helps to keep the pot small and not make us pot committed. I have seen on high stakes poker Johnny Chan how easy he made it look laying down pocket aces.I do not have the ability to lay down these big hands but i am working on it.
 
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This many BB's deep youre likely to get called with a wide range especialy in position and after all KK is just 1 pair and you should either try to play a small controled pot or pretend to be crazy and make insane preflop raise in hope he calls you off with something exactly like the hand he had. He would have trouble set mining for alot of chips and would either fold or reshove hoping to be in good shape, after all TT is a value hand against a big range that people open with this early in the tournament.
Atleast then you would of got it in as a big favorite or lived to find a better spot. Playing OOP this deep is very demanding with hands like KK which most of the time are 1 pair on the river and if youre up against a fancy schmancy mix it up player your gona have to make some hard hero calls.
 
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WiZZiM

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flat call turn/ most likely call off the river depending on what size he makes it.
 
eidikos

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bad play in my opinion
its a call-call or call-fold against aggression
what kind of hands do you think they call you there and loose from kk?
besides you could raise 4x bb pre flop from your early position
 
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