Would you fold preflop with aces?

Strange question right?

Lets say you are playing a tournament and its the first hand... doesnt matter the buy in its something that you are comfortable with and you are first to act with the old Bullets AA.. You raise to 4x the BB

guy next to you re-raises to 270...
2 away from you re-rasies all in
3 away from you calls the raise...
next three fold....
small blind calls the all in...
big blind calls the all in...

Now you are looking at probably 5 maybe 6 people to the first hand all in... would you call or fold with your aces?

What's the size of the field, buy in? Or is this an entirely hypothetical question? You also have to consider that one or both of your other aces are most likely going to be out of play given the action, if it's a rebuy tournament I call, if it's a freezeout, I'd probably reluctantly call and get knocked out! Folding is understandable, but by the same token you'd be nearly half way to the final table winning the hand! I daresay it's probably not a large buy in, and theres a lot of non premium hands here, I mean, you will be favourite, but still only about 4/1 to win the hand, to possibly win ~6x starting stack, for sure, the fold is understandable, but if you win, you're in a great position to pick your spots and coast to the money and hopefully final table. Personally I call, but for sure, with a touch of irony, it is a tough spot

Okay we are going with a single table 9man SNG

I would have to say to fold here because sometimes especially in a S&g you have to wait and fold to try to advance your position and be strategic when takeing your shots I say fold and let one of them eliminate the other and thats 1 less you have to worry about it...

Folding AA preflop

Yeah odds def say you are prob no longer a fav overall but the pot odds will

more than make up for that I would think. I just ran a trial on Pokerstove and

pitting AA against KK, AKs JJ, TT. you are still 42.82 fav no longer a fav sure

but you are practically flipping to go from 1500 in chips for example to finish

the first hand on like 7500 in chips whether ICM says fold in this situation I

dont know it prob says fold but ICM aint always right and has limitations. I

spose you have to put people on a pretty tight range if they are moving allin

or calling allin very early but you crush all other hands. So personally in that

situation I would flip to go from 1500 up to 7500.

ill just add my response... I would call here.. just for the fact of... if it is a tournament i am comfortable with i could buy into another right after... so Long Live Aces!

9 man SnG??? Well that changes everything, I fold!

Skalansky's take on Folding AA

In Tournament poker for Advanced players David Skalansky came up with an

interesting hypothetical situation. He posed that you were at the final table of

a Major Event I think it was The Main Event at the wsop and there were 4

players left 2 small stacks lets say both had 15,000 you had 85,000 and the

chip leader had millions of chips blinds for arguments sake were 5000/10000.

In this example you were last to act the 2 short stacks moved in and were

called by the monster stack his Conundrum was you looked down at AA and

his contention was that by simply folding you have moved up atleast 1 space

possible 2 which could be worth millions of $$$ this is the only time I could

ever concede that you could comfortably fold the bullets

Need to put a number to it, so let's say it's a $10+1 Sng. Well, if you call you have ~ 35% equity. You'll have 9,000 in chips if you win, and that's worth 42% of the prize pool, or $37.80.

So the EV of calling is .35($37.80) + .65($0) = $13.23

Folding (assuming one person wins the hand) leaves you with 1420 chips which will be worth 14.8% of the pool, which is $13.32

EV of folding = 1($13.32) = $13.32

Both calling and folding are close, but folding is a slightly better play.

Its up to u if u call or not. Up against everyone individually u are of course a fav but against all hands together u a a dog to win the hand. With 5 allins already behind u there is a big chance someone has the other two aces so u are dead to a chop (excluding hitting a flush) If u wanna gamble go for it, but there is more chance u lose the hand then win it.

Mase31683 said:

Need to put a number to it, so let's say it's a $10+1 Sng. Well, if you call you have ~ 35% equity. You'll have 9,000 in chips if you win, and that's worth 42% of the prize pool, or $37.80.

So the EV of calling is .35($37.80) + .65($0) = $13.23

Folding (assuming one person wins the hand) leaves you with 1420 chips which will be worth 14.8% of the pool, which is $13.32

EV of folding = 1($13.32) = $13.32

Both calling and folding are close, but folding is a slightly better play.

Click to expand...

I'd guess your estimate of equity on the call is a little high, I reckon it's closer to ~25%, in that sense, folding is even more of a +ve play than calling. And to add that, the OP plays at full tilt, so this is a 9 man sit n go not 10, and assuming no split pot, 4 players are going to be knocked out if the OP folds, leaving just the one monster stack, and 4 other (inc. undone) remaining players, with practically equal stacks, and 3 spots paying out. OP has more or less equal stack to the other 3 remaining players, and a good chance of making it to at least 2nd place and 30% of the prizepool. Also assuming undone (as a CCer and 5 all ins first hand!) is more wise than many of his opponents at this level, can successfully on more occasions than not push around the weaker players, all with playable stacks only being the first level, you can put yourself into a reasonably strong position, such that 2nd place is definitely within reach, and 1st not totally out of the question, depending on how the winner of this pot plays with his big stack.

Folding, in a 9 man sng, in the first hand, first level, with AA, and 5 people all in (most likely), is the only justifiable play imo.

I'd take the flip. You win you're in a great position. You lose, fire up another. You want to win sit'n'go's, not just make the money and if you want a hand it would be aces.

I do agree that folding is just as a good an option, if you are better than the field you can out play yout opponents knowing you only have 5 opponents to get through, 2 to make the money.

SPCotter said:

I'd guess your estimate of equity on the call is a little high,

Click to expand...

equity win
Hand 0: 35.221%{ AhAs }
Hand 1: 09.985%{ KcKd }
Hand 2: 16.188%{ JdJh }
Hand 3: 14.317%{ TcTs }
Hand 4: 01.852%{ AdKs }
Hand 5: 22.437%{ 6h5h }

Wasn't an estimate

This is a question that has come up many times and somehow causes many fights and strong opinions. Meh. IMO, Mase has the answer. You are ahead. Call.

Mase31683 said:

equity win
Hand 0: 35.221%{ AhAs }
Hand 1: 09.985%{ KcKd }
Hand 2: 16.188%{ JdJh }
Hand 3: 14.317%{ TcTs }
Hand 4: 01.852%{ AdKs }
Hand 5: 22.437%{ 6h5h }

Wasn't an estimate

Click to expand...

fair enough :top:

Here's my guess for opponents' ranges, assuming they are somewhat reasonable players. Of course, that's not a safe assumption most of the time.

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

1,505,522,304 games 7.688 secs 195,827,562 games/sec

Board:
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 47.948% 45.53% 02.41% 685516524 36357790.00 { AA }
Hand 1: 10.411% 09.86% 00.55% 148456943 8279408.67 { 77+, A7s+, K9s+, QTs+, JTs, ATo+, KTo+, QJo }
Hand 2: 11.980% 11.87% 00.11% 178755139 1610558.50 { TT+, AKs }
Hand 3: 11.468% 11.27% 00.20% 169691424 2959711.50 { JJ+ }
Hand 4: 08.956% 08.23% 00.73% 123876187 11014623.17 { 77+, A9s+, KTs+, QTs+, JTs, ATo+, KJo+ }
Hand 5: 09.240% 07.05% 02.20% 106114187 33057915.17 { TT+ }


I think I'm calling with almost 50% equity. Then I can probably coast into no worse than second place.

The buy-in is a consideration. At cheap buy-ins, you often have people going all-in first hand with any two cards. At high buy-ins, the good player who wins the hand is going to use his big stack to crush you. So maybe at a moderate buy-in, you might be wise to fold - but not at cheap or high buy-ins.

Let's take the worst possible case scenario. Suppose you are up against AK, AQ, and suited connectors in all four suits. Nobody has anybody else's outs for trips, except all the aces are burned. 9T suited is actually a slight favorite to win the hand, but I am are 20% to win 6 for 1. I'm still calling.

The only thing is maybe somebody else has AA. Now you are only about 13.5% to tie for 2.5 for 1, and 1.5% to win. But the chances of that are so slim, I'm still calling.

But, I have to admit, in this scenario, folding AA preflop is not a bad choice.

Still, I have to look at a best case scenario. Suppose I am up against 4 smaller pairs, and 2 random hands, with no aces burned? Now I'm 35% to win 6 for 1. Against 6 random hands, I'm 44%. I have to call. If I balance the 6 randoms against the AA vs AA scenario, and the 4 pairs against the other worst case scenario - and consider my tournament position if I win - I have to conclude that calling is the best play. I am not going to crap on somebody who folds, but I am sure that calling is still the best play.

Nice question though. Did this actually happen?

With that much in the pot it is total worth the risk when you have the nuts. It will one of those hands you just cant watch but if you win, instant chip lead and if you lose its still better than play for an hour or two and busting outside of the money.

There are about 100 threads like this.

In a tournament, occasionally (very occasionally) the ICM dictates that you fold AA preflop.

It is rare. When it occurs it is correct to do so, however most people will never find them in this situation anyway.

ICM does not apply to cash games.

ICM really only comes into play in the final stages of a tournament.

So yes there are very rare circumstances were it is correct.

They are explained in other similar threads.

I would have to say Maybe, i see AA cracked to many times, when the whole table has pushed all-in. Tho with my win rate on them i would have to call, just so i get them cracked..

9 man SNG well within appropriate BRM levels, Insta call.

Well you will probably the favorit but facing so many opponents reduces your chances to win...
If you like to gamble then you have to call...

Kenzie 96 said:

9 man SNG well within appropriate BRM levels, Insta call.

Click to expand...

Fist pump instant call

I would fold with the ops original question.Against 6 expected all ins,fold and get ready to play short handed with 4-5 players left.A great chance to cash from here.If you call,you will likely bust 3 out 4 times!Not a good Idea




Snow

I would call altho i can't lay down a high pocket pair AA KK or QQ i think its one of my weaknesses.