Winning at cash but losing at 10 seat SNG's

I seem to be struggling in 10 seat SNG's. I've played around 160 tournies now and my profit just keeps dropping.

I realized last week my strategy was perhaps the reason I wasn't doing to good so I changed my style by playing tight and only playing IP with strong hands (much like my cash game style), then once I have around 20-25 BB I start to loosen up, raising and stealing the blinds.

This, if successful usually puts me in a good position to cash. It just seems like the latter part of the SNG comes down to luck, even if I have a large stack. I like to call other players all-ins (when I have them covered with chips) with premium hands and pocket pairs and also A8+, K9+. Obviously this is based on how the other players have been playing. Is this the correct strategy?

I've lost count the amount of times I've been dominating people only to get beat. I actually dread seeing me dominating someone now lol. I don't want to turn this into yet another bad beat post so will stop at that. I do feel like I've had a bit of bad luck but I believe my poor run is down to my play in some way.

I've been playing in 10 seat $1.20 SNG's with the odd ocassional 10 seat $3.30 SNG. All I can say is thank god I can fund my SNG's with my cash game winnings. Something needs to change though! It would be nice if this long run could just be standard varience in SNG's?

I also noticed my $EV total if higher than my Winnings total, does this show I've been running poor?

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tourneyresultsgraph.png
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those graphs tell me nothing. the $ev is a bit misleading. but it's likely a combination of playing poorly and also running badly.

if you can get a hold of your tournament distribution that would help a lot more. basically distribution is the % amount you finish in 10th place, 9th place, etc etc.

Also, you have only 160 tourneys, this is really nothing. start worrying when you reach 3-400 and your still in the red.

it's unlikely you should be having huge downswings in small limit games like this, 60 buyins is quite a big swing in these games, so it's highly likely you are doing some fundimental things incorrectly.

Instead of wanting to call other players all ins (by all means, it's warranted a lot of the time) try to be the one pushing on other players in the later game when stacks are short. by calling, you only have one way to win chips, shoving you have two .

also, just like cash, it takes a lot of work to actually profit in these games. but if you raise a lot and get aggressive in the late game, you should do fine.

And yes, you will see a lot more showdowns where you and another player are all in and you are essentially flipping. there is skill involved still, but it's more math and probabilities based, rather than the postflop skill game cash games are.

if you decide to play more of these games come back when you have 4-500 games and post the distribution graph, it will give a solid indicator of what could possibly be going wrong. Also, im happy to look over a few tournaments for you, pm if interested.

wizzim gave ya some good advice for sure i have to agree
calling allins can be dangerous in sng's i suggest making the big bets and slow down on calling them

WiZZiM said:

Also, you have only 160 tourneys, this is really nothing. start worrying when you reach 3-400 and your still in the red.

it's unlikely you should be having huge downswings in small limit games like this, 60 buyins is quite a big swing in these games, so it's highly likely you are doing some fundimental things incorrectly.

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By sheer coincidence I played around 160 tournaments in 2012 and I finished at 33.5% ROI for the year. So yes, sample size is small, but also yes, you are very likely doing it wrong. (Of course these were not my first ever tournaments and I have a lot of experience under my belt)

Tournaments are a totally different game to cash, and MTTs are very different from STTs. Stacking off ranges get wider and wider as the blinds go up and top pair is usually the nuts whenever you hit it.

The best advice I can give is to dedicate yourself to improving, study like all the time and post some hands where you weren't sure as well as hands where you thought you were. If you make the effort to learn you will be crushing the $1.40 sng's in no time.

There's just so much to say about winning strategy that I can't even begin to go into it here, but if you come across something during your studies or whatever and you need clarity just post it up and we'll take a look.

EDIT:

WiZZiM said:

...Also, im happy to look over a few tournaments for you, pm if interested.

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Just saw this. Probably the most +ev thing in this thread if you're srs about improving.

Brilliant thanks for the advice everyone. I will play a few more games with the intention of calling less all-ins when I have people covered, unless I have a really big hand and see how I fair in the latter stages. That could very well big a big leak in my strategy.

sorry, i might have mislead you. don't stop calling all ins on account of what we have said. none of use have seen you play, so we're running low on information about your game. until i see you play, i really cant comment too much. so just keep playing the way you feel is correct and let the cards fall where they may.

Ok I understand, but I think you could be correct in some respects. It worth a try not calling all-ins with hands such as 22-88 maybe? Unless I have them covered 3 times over.
I know this is an MTT but is this the correct play or not? It's just an example of me calling an all-in. I had KK, I figured if he had AA it would just be unlucky. I know it's not the place to post HH but just whilst we are on the subject.
***** History for hand T5-311799885-120 (TOURNAMENT: "$100 NL Holdem", R-6824-85, buy-in: $1.20) *****
Start hand: Sun Mar 10 17:24:11 GMT 2013
Table: Table #12 [311799885] (NO_LIMIT TEXAS_HOLDEM 250/500, ante: 50, Chips)
User: TM1610
Button: seat 8
Players in round: 9 (10)
Seat 1: b5xokb0&lorq (15380)
Seat 2: ispix1 (11195)
Seat 4: cibula25 (15807)
Seat 5: oluf-sand (6033)
Seat 6: Andrev60AE (4442)
Seat 7: 99thea99 (4550)
Seat 8: Tessa82 (11988)
Seat 9: bill13bill13 (9980)
Seat 10: TM1610 (13166)
bill13bill13 posts ante 50
TM1610 posts ante 50
b5xokb0&lorq posts ante 50
ispix1 posts ante 50
cibula25 posts ante 50
oluf-sand posts ante 50
Andrev60AE posts ante 50
99thea99 posts ante 50
Tessa82 posts ante 50
bill13bill13 posts small blind (250)
TM1610 posts big blind (500)
---
Dealing pocket cards
Dealing to TM1610: [Kc, Ks]
b5xokb0&lorq folds
ispix1 folds
cibula25 folds
oluf-sand folds
Andrev60AE folds
99thea99 folds
Tessa82 calls 500
bill13bill13 folds
TM1610 raises 785 to 1285
Tessa82 raises 11438 to 11938 [all in]
TM1610 calls 10653
--- Dealing flop [4c, 4d, Jc]
--- Dealing turn A♣
--- Dealing river A♥
---
Summary:
Main pot: 24576 won by Tessa82 (24576)
Rake taken: $0
Seat 1: b5xokb0&lorq (15330), net: -50
Seat 2: ispix1 (11145), net: -50
Seat 4: cibula25 (15757), net: -50
Seat 5: oluf-sand (5983), net: -50
Seat 6: Andrev60AE (4392), net: -50
Seat 7: 99thea99 (4500), net: -50
Seat 8: Tessa82 (24576), net: +12588, [As, Kd] (FULL_HOUSE ACE, FOUR)
Seat 9: bill13bill13 (9680), net: -300
Seat 10: TM1610 (1178), net: -11988, [Kc, Ks] (TWO_PAIR ACE, KING)
***** End of hand T5-311799885-120 *****

I think a total of 160 tourneys doesn't show much, especially if you are in the process of learning the game, just keep grinding some more

If you're even considering folding KK pre here then you're probably playing way too tight.

To the OP,
how are you able to generate the graphs and charts??
thanks

Lucothefish said:

If you're even considering folding KK pre here then you're probably playing way too tight.

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this.... minus the probably.

Have a look at SNG Planet's Blueprint and read Moshams book.
SNGs can be run good, run bad, high variance affairs, but the above is a good starting point for you to improve

tim132 said:

Brilliant thanks for the advice everyone. I will play a few more games with the intention of calling less all-ins when I have people covered, unless I have a really big hand and see how I fair in the latter stages. That could very well big a big leak in my strategy.

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I don't know if this helps, but when playing sng's if I get my stack up early, I strategize. For instance, if there;s 6 players left, and i'm a big stack, with two other big stacks, unless I have a huge pocket pair, i'm going to wait until the bigger stacks take out a couple of the other stacks or the short stacks take each other out. Also, i'm a trapper at times. I like to check raise when I connect with the flop, most times the other player think i'm trying to steal and put me allin and lose. But if all else fails, put them on tilt

I a strategy that is similar to what pokertoi just said. If you can, just wait the players with the stacks that are similar to kill themselfs. While antes come in the game and the bb gets bigger, they will have to double up or fall.

I'M probably wrong, but in my opinion it may not be your ' bad' play, but the bad plays made by many players. The bad players, and the mtt's and sng's have boatloads of terrible players, with so many playing in a tournament, the chances are great for getting good hands beat.Like walking through a minefield blind folded. A cash table with 9 players for example, is much easier to determine the players tendencies, and if any 'donks' are at the table. In tournaments, you are up against many 'donks', you or other players are transferred constantly, making it harder to get 'reads'. And, it's been my observation that the tighter you play in mtt's you'll end up finishing midway most of the time. You can play too tight. Then when the blinds get high, your stuck with a mediocre stack. Waiting on premium hands is good, but if you don't take some chances, you'll just be swimming in place, unless of course lady luck decides to smile on you.



end up finishing