Why only 2X raise?

freeringo

freeringo

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This has been bugging me for so long now.
I see it over and over again in league play and I don't understand the logic in it's play. Why are players continually raising only 2X the big blind?
I was taught that 2 1/2 to 3 times the big blind was the proper raise.
In my opinion and most books is that a 2X raise is dangerous to play
because it allows the BB to get in the hand too cheaply and allows multiple player hands more frequently.
 
DaveE

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It's good enough when stack to blind ratios get smaller, especially if the big blind is under 10bbs. BB would be risking a significant portion of his stack to pay the extra and 2bbs is hard to just call for everyone else. It's pretty much fold or reraise all in.
 
BatteredMugshot

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It all depends on who/what taught you the game. When i FIRST hit the poker tables as a clueless button clicker, i was none the wiser and took on a 3-3.5x open raise. It worked fine but for the tighter of tables, it did nothing but polarize the stronger ranges and push out weaker ones. Over time ive found that 2-2.5x works good enough. It allows me to open more hands and when the antes come out...i couldnt ask for better :)
All in all, id have to say that its either player specific or table specific. Dont be afraid to adjust
 
dmorris68

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Like kcanuck said, it's a pretty major MTT leak to not adjust your opening raise in proportion to the blinds. You're risking far too great a proportion of your stack and it's not necessary. A smaller bet when stacks are small is just as effective and less risky. You're forcing anyone with a hand to play to shove over the top of you which most of the time will force you to fold a sizable portion of your stack.

I've noticed the lack of bet sizing adjustment in several league players lately, and I think you were one of them. :) I was scratching my head when we were 5 handed in last Friday's game seeing almost everyone else 3-4x opening with only 15-20bb stacks. That's a highly volatile/risky approach to take.

An exception here may be when you're the far and away chip leader and are just bullying everyone to eat away their blinds, but you have to be careful. Bigger bets carry more FE but you only want to fold people out when you don't have a value hand. If you then adjust your open size based on hand strength then you're playing face-up and inviting massive exploitation. Best to just be consistent.

My general rule of thumb is to 3x from the start until the blinds reach about 50/100, then 2.5x until about 150/300, then 2.25x or 2x from there. Obviously those are opening raises, if I'm raising behind limpers it's higher accordingly.
 
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rumsey182

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also fits into overall gameplan and how willing you are to play wider ranges
 
Arjonius

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It can be pretty situational, which means you should always be looking to see if and how much you should adjust from whatever your default bet size is.

Note that in some situations, the adjustment will be to bet more. For instance, it's not common but also not unknown to find micro-ring tables where you'll have to open to 4x or even 5x to have the same effect that 2.5x or 3x usually has.

Also at micro-stakes, there are situations where you can consider betting more than usual with premiums; e.g. if you have AA and are betting into an opponent who will call with the same range whether you make it 2x, 3x or 5x, you should 5x it.
 
spiderman637

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I agree with u completely that minimum of 3x bet is must as advised by many books for various factors known...

I would like to point u out that a 2x raise is done frequently only in the first stage of a pre decided serial bet...when the hero wants to get the villian involved into the hand first where he has set a trap for...

Other scenario where u see a 2x bet is when hero makes a 2x bet to stop the villian from making a bigger bet...i mean normal standard players do a rerasie only when they have very good hands...so its like trying to get a read on the villian....Hope u got what i want to pint out !
 
DaveE

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Like kcanuck said, it's a pretty major MTT leak to not adjust your opening raise in proportion to the blinds. You're risking far too great a proportion of your stack and it's not necessary. A smaller bet when stacks are small is just as effective and less risky. You're forcing anyone with a hand to play to shove over the top of you which most of the time will force you to fold a sizable portion of your stack.

I've noticed the lack of bet sizing adjustment in several league players lately, and I think you were one of them. :) I was scratching my head when we were 5 handed in last Friday's game seeing almost everyone else 3-4x opening with only 15-20bb stacks. That's a highly volatile/risky approach to take.

An exception here may be when you're the far and away chip leader and are just bullying everyone to eat away their blinds, but you have to be careful. Bigger bets carry more FE but you only want to fold people out when you don't have a value hand. If you then adjust your open size based on hand strength then you're playing face-up and inviting massive exploitation. Best to just be consistent.

My general rule of thumb is to 3x from the start until the blinds reach about 50/100, then 2.5x until about 150/300, then 2.25x or 2x from there. Obviously those are opening raises, if I'm raising behind limpers it's higher accordingly.

^^^Gospel imo.
 
Jacki Burkhart

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Like kcanuck said, it's a pretty major MTT leak to not adjust your opening raise in proportion to the blinds. You're risking far too great a proportion of your stack and it's not necessary. A smaller bet when stacks are small is just as effective and less risky. You're forcing anyone with a hand to play to shove over the top of you which most of the time will force you to fold a sizable portion of your stack.

I've noticed the lack of bet sizing adjustment in several league players lately, and I think you were one of them. :) I was scratching my head when we were 5 handed in last Friday's game seeing almost everyone else 3-4x opening with only 15-20bb stacks. That's a highly volatile/risky approach to take.

An exception here may be when you're the far and away chip leader and are just bullying everyone to eat away their blinds, but you have to be careful. Bigger bets carry more FE but you only want to fold people out when you don't have a value hand. If you then adjust your open size based on hand strength then you're playing face-up and inviting massive exploitation. Best to just be consistent.

My general rule of thumb is to 3x from the start until the blinds reach about 50/100, then 2.5x until about 150/300, then 2.25x or 2x from there. Obviously those are opening raises, if I'm raising behind limpers it's higher accordingly.

^^^^^^^this. I can't improve on that, it's perfect!

I'll add this though....poker is a dynamic game that is always changing. I first noticed this trend of 2x raising at the wsop a couple years ago, and it perplexed me...then it started to make sense and I started doing it myself. now it is ubiquitous throughout most big tourneys when the average stack gets to about M=10-15

I think about 5-6 years ago 3x raising was common practice, industry standard. Now I think the game has evolved and if we want to keep up with those players on the cutting edge we should watch and learn and adopt the parts of their game that make sense.

This year at the WSOP all the good players seemed to be raising 2.5x from the start, and then once there were antes they were raising 2x plus an ante. so if it was 100/200/25 they would raise to 425. In fact, when somebody was raising 3x it seemed really out of place...
 
rdm4k

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there are several factors regarding the 2x opening. The first thought, I have noticed that is a pretty much loved european techinque more than american.
Anyway the reasons are different if u analyse regarding the mtt play or the cash game.

In the tourney adjusting the size goes with the blind increase for the obvious reason that, if u keep on opening 3x, u invest too much and that reduce the action possibilities (u would be more often committed to the pot and for ex a cbet will leave u with less the a psb too often to let it be profitable).

Another question to point is that playing with a raising size of 2x is most suitable for a lag play style (see small ball)

It is even pretty diffused atm in the cash game play because allow you to play more pots with a smaller money investment. Imho it might be +ev wiht laggish play style. It allow you to create more 4 betted and 5 betted with a smaller investment.

What i suggest (mtt play) is to keep on opening 3, 3.5x in early stage mtt, then with the blind increasing reduce the opening size till the size you retain to be more appropriated.
Absolutely do not change the size according with the hand strength if u don t want to risk to be exploitable.

I hope this helps.
 
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I always think a lot of raises are based on how comfortable players are with their game pre or post flop.

If you can get players to call min raises pre, then fold on flop regularly, you will build your stack at a nice rate without risking many chips. Many players don't like making difficult post flop decisions.



Sent from my Nexus 10 using Tapatalk 4
 
freeringo

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Thanks everyone for your responses
I am starting to make more sense of it and will make some minor adjustments
 
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Sometimes if i Have KK or AA ill do double hoping to get a 3bet then I 4bet normally though thats some just freeroll or somethin i do that in
 
PrayForSpades

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In higher buyins or deep in mtts I will always min raise every hand I play, because people will still give me respect for my image at the table. And if the big blind is in the hand I am not gonna stack off with a big PP on a 345 type board.
 
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