Who wins in micro SNG's?

I am having difficulty beating micro $1 and $2 SNGs. Ok, so I can do it when im on form quiet easily, but if I grind 4 tables of $1 SNG's, I usually go out about 5th in every one. Just to note I have an ROI of 59% in $5 SNG's.
So the two questions I have are:

• Should I move up to $5 SNG's (which are in my opinion , a little easier as people are tighter and hand ranges easier to assign)

• Who wins at micro SNG's? (I sharkscope ever player in my $2 SNG and every one is down atleast $100)

I play the micro stakes quite frequently. I've turned $2 into roughly $300. I guess that makes me a winning player at the level.

As for moving up in stakes, it depends if your br is large enough. Also, roi of 59% is pretty good, but how many have you played at that level? It's probably impossible to continue playing that well over a long time. I've noticed that at the $5 limit the players are tighter, but they also are much better at hiding their hand strength than the $1 players.

Many players win at micro stakes.

In my opinion micro players are indeed a lot more loose as they will say "it's only a dollar" sort of speech. So they don't feel they are losing out on pushing with garbage as most are recreational players. However, you do get a lot of grinders who will be playing and have a proper understanding of the game.

I woulden't move up just because you have a postive ROI on $5.00. For one what is your sample size? It must be very very small..

Second to this, because people are much more loose in $1.00 there will be more varience obviously. Quite often people don't understand that say for example you raise up in EP with A,K, someone will re-raise or just flat call with A,10 or ace rag because any Ace is good in their eyes. Obviously you will get sucked out numerous times BUT over the long haul you shoudl be showing a higher ROI at the lower limits where these sort of plays happen. Of course it's very frustrating at times and I'm with you on it. It's just how it goes unfortuately but you should post better results in the lower buy-ins.

1 move up were they respect your raises.
Edit: on a serious note like all above how many stt have you played at the $5 level.

micro players play way more agressive than higher limit games, obv. i dont see a difference in 1-10$ games. so stick to low limit and play your game . gl

teebee said:

micro players play way more loose/anything than higher limit games, obv. i dont see a difference in 1-10$ games. so stick to low limit and play your game . gl

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FYP

TheKAAHK said:

FYP

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yeah this, they're definitely not more aggressive

Solid, winning players will win at the micro stakes - sometimes even enough to offset the higher percentage of rake that they charge.

So a couple of thoughts:

- If you can't beat the $2 level you're probably not going to beat the $5 level in the long run.

- 59% ROI is crazy high, how many games is that over?

If you're rolled for it I don't think there's any problem skipping the $1 level and going straight to the $2 games. If memory serves me correctly the play is fairly similar and $2 games aren't raked as hard. But if you can't beat them you're asking for trouble moving up to the $5 level IMO.

man, sometimes it´s more difficult to keep winning streak in micros, although players are more "fishy". The main thing is that you almost never can put your opponent on a range of hand. I´m playing 2/5dols sngs and i´m like dead even for about 4 months. Try to score in some major big field tournaments and get bigger bankroll so you can play on a higher level

There are many times in $1, $2, $5, & $10 STTs where I am amazed at junk people play. Even worse is what they will call down to the river with. As you move up, you do find the quality of play over all improves, but it is not dramatic and just because you move up a level, don’t expect every player to be better.

People are stacked different and the "It's only a $1" can be the same as someone with a bigger bank account saying "Pfff, its only $10..." There are also novices playing with regulars, people who are serious about playing and people who are drunk and just goofing around. Some players may be multi-tabling and some are focused on one game. All of this happens at all levels, so you never know the situation with the person across the virtual table.

I TRY to play a solid game with proper concepts at all levels. I hope that training myself to make correct decisions on a consistent basis will pay off in the log run, regardless of buy in level.

I would suggest playing what your roll allows according to the 50 – 100 buy-in guidelines. Once you have $250+, consider moving up. I started at the $1’s, moved up to be a $2 regular, and am trying to stay in the $5s now. I think everyone goes through the stages of steadily moving up in stakes. You can learn something or develop a part of your game at every level.

I agree with everything that JMT said. Some of the players at the $2 stakes where I play are amazingly bad and yet some are very solid and have a good grasp of strategy.

Good bankroll management is critical - don't move up to $5 until you're rolled for it.

Great answers, thanks for the responses. As for the sample base for the ROI of $5, it is indeed VERY small.
I'm going to keep trying to grind $2 SNG's but with more studying and less playing. Maybe i'm not winning because i'm not studying indepth enough, however over the last two months my game has improved 10x, and so I must be improving atleast.

The advice in this thread is great so thanks guys

Play at least 1000 $2 games. If your ROI isn't more than 5% I would stay there a little longer unless you are rolled deeply like 50-100 BI's or so.

There are a few small differences as you move up even just to $5. There is at FT anyway. One of the biggest ones I noticed is there are more winning players(check sharkscope). The regs are a little better. So don't move up unless you are doing good over large sample IMO. This sounds like the opposite of advice I would have gave a few months ago, but I am still learning.

If a player makes a profit at micro stakes, they move up - that's why you don't see them there anymore

No one should grind micros for long, rake is high and earnings are low. Don't worry about sample sizes, just aim at moving up.

Pascal LeFiscal said:

If a player makes a profit at micro stakes, they move up - that's why you don't see them there anymore

No one should grind micros for long, rake is high and earnings are low. Don't worry about sample sizes, just aim at moving up.

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Then how are you supposed to know if you suck or not ?


I agree about the rake though. If you don't know if you are any good or not(small sample size) and have at least $250 you are willing to lose then sure move up.

Because the micro stakes are full of morons? So if your bankroll goes up you move up, if it goes down you go down and improve your game again. Fast. Then move up again.

Simple

Pascal LeFiscal said:

Because the micro stakes are full of morons? So if your bankroll goes up you move up, if it goes down you go down and improve your game again. Fast. Then move up again.

Simple

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This is one very good reason to stay. Are you honestly telling me you would rather play a table full of decent regs than a mixed bag of donks? Not I! The only reason to move up is rake or if you know you are winning player.

As for the BR thing this is exactly how I have done it many times before. Only problem is if not well disciplined then you are doomed for failure. Let's say you move up and play 10 games and lose them. You did nothing wrong but you start thinking you did and play differently. Then you gotta move back down and you can't remember how to beat that level and get frustrated. Then you have to take a break, reflect ect.............

Point is all this could have been avoided just by taking a few months of your time, reading the books, posting the hands, and getting a thousand games under your belt. Just play $2 and not 1$ games. $1 are weak as $2 but rake sucks almost twice as bad. I have had over 10% ROI well over 1000 games at $2.25 and I think this could have been doubled! So these are winnable for sure!

Now if you got extra money to learn with then skip all that B.S. Just speaking from experience is all.

You say your playing 4 tables at once and this seems like a way to make a profit over a short period if your playing well and the cards fall right. Back down to 1 or 2 tables and study your opponents and their moves. Look back at the hand if it reaches showdown, see who are the chasers, see who are the bluffers and use this info to your advantage

josh_dei8 said:

You say your playing 4 tables at once and this seems like a way to make a profit over a short period if your playing well and the cards fall right. Back down to 1 or 2 tables and study your opponents and their moves. Look back at the hand if it reaches showdown, see who are the chasers, see who are the bluffers and use this info to your advantage

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I totally agree with this. For the last week or so I have been playing 2 instead of four because I just moved up a level. Totally seeing stuff I wouldn't see when playing 4+. More tables are good for $'s per hour(assuming you are a winning player), but not for trying to improve game. After this add tables slowly. One day last week I was rushing to get my 50 FTP's for the day and decided to go back to 4 tables. It was my worst day since moving up and it wasn't luck!

DetroitJimmy said:

This is one very good reason to stay. Are you honestly telling me you would rather play a table full of decent regs than a mixed bag of donks? Not I! The only reason to move up is rake or if you know you are winning player.

As for the BR thing this is exactly how I have done it many times before. Only problem is if not well disciplined then you are doomed for failure. Let's say you move up and play 10 games and lose them. You did nothing wrong but you start thinking you did and play differently. Then you gotta move back down and you can't remember how to beat that level and get frustrated. Then you have to take a break, reflect ect.............

Point is all this could have been avoided just by taking a few months of your time, reading the books, posting the hands, and getting a thousand games under your belt. Just play $2 and not 1$ games. $1 are weak as $2 but rake sucks almost twice as bad. I have had over 10% ROI well over 1000 games at $2.25 and I think this could have been doubled! So these are winnable for sure!

Now if you got extra money to learn with then skip all that B.S. Just speaking from experience is all.

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Dude, I assure you that the play between the $1 and $5 level is not that varied. And I don't believe that Pascal is advising to move into reg infested waters.

I play SNG between $2 and $6 regularly and though you will see a lot more of the same players, ie: "regs", in the $5+ games, that does not mean that they are any better than the random fish in the lowest limits. I Sharkscope the majority of the players that I see in these games regularly and 95% of them are losing players like the players in the $1 games. The only difference is that the $5 players just lose more and faster.

Moving up past $6T sng is where you are going to find better regs.

Being a reg does not necessarily make one good at that level, it just means that is where they play.

We are talking standard or turbo's? Does it matter?

I must just be searching the right people with my SS 5 day limit then. I do target the people I think are playing good and most of the time they are 5-15% ROI over large sample. I then make note of these peeps and at the right time of day (A.K.A. 2-6 AM EST) there are sometimes 3-4 players that are not only MT regs, but HUGE winners! This is not true most of the time during weekday evenings and weekends but most other time. There is a jump in skill for sure when traffic is down to 40,000 players or so.

Another thing even if these players were the same skill that makes them "morons" too. I'm pretty sure OP said he didn't want to play morons so this will accomplish very little IMO to move early.

Are we talking FT or PS here? I know from my experience more fish at PS and haven't played enough there lately to even know if there is a difference in skill.

DetroitJimmy said:

We are talking standard or turbo's? Does it matter?

I must just be searching the right people with my SS 5 day limit then. I do target the people I think are playing good and most of the time they are 5-15% ROI over large sample. I then make note of these peeps and at the right time of day (A.K.A. 2-6 AM EST) there are sometimes 3-4 players that are not only MT regs, but HUGE winners! This is not true most of the time during weekday evenings and weekends but most other time. There is a jump in skill for sure when traffic is down to 40,000 players or so.

Another thing even if these players were the same skill that makes them "morons" too. I'm pretty sure OP said he didn't want to play morons so this will accomplish very little IMO to move early.

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Weird, I play at FTP, usually about the same times you do. I find that a lot of the better players are usually done for the day around 1am CST. After that I notice the level of play drops off pretty good. Maybe I'm just hitting the right tables? The number of winning players goes from a three average to maybe one per table. Though I must admit that lately I have been playing 18 and 27 player SNG, so my numbers may be a bit skewed.

About your last point, I agree. The morons are everywhere. So I suppose in the end the OP is just going to have to bite the bullet and get used to it.

TheKAAHK said:

Though I must admit that lately I have been playing 18 and 27 player SNG, so my numbers may be a bit skewed.

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LOL i bet they are! Those things are mini-donkaments! I haven't the patience for those.

DetroitJimmy said:

This is one very good reason to stay. Are you honestly telling me you would rather play a table full of decent regs than a mixed bag of donks? Not I! The only reason to move up is rake or if you know you are winning player.

As for the BR thing this is exactly how I have done it many times before. Only problem is if not well disciplined then you are doomed for failure. Let's say you move up and play 10 games and lose them. You did nothing wrong but you start thinking you did and play differently. Then you gotta move back down and you can't remember how to beat that level and get frustrated. Then you have to take a break, reflect ect.............

Point is all this could have been avoided just by taking a few months of your time, reading the books, posting the hands, and getting a thousand games under your belt. Just play $2 and not 1$ games. $1 are weak as $2 but rake sucks almost twice as bad. I have had over 10% ROI well over 1000 games at $2.25 and I think this could have been doubled! So these are winnable for sure!

Now if you got extra money to learn with then skip all that B.S. Just speaking from experience is all.

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I play to win. My aim is for my game always to be better than that of my opponents, leading to me winning money.

At the micro stakes, this is easy. Anyone with a brain can beat micros. As you move up it slowly gets harder, but it's still not really that hard. As you said - a reason to move up is a winning player. If you are not winning at micros you have some huge leaks which you need to get sorted asap.

If you have a 50% ROI at $1 tournaments you earn 50c a tournament, compared to a 10% ROI at $10 tournaments where you earn $1 a tournament - it's obvious which you should be playing.