Whether to never limp heads up(my strategy good?)

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pat3392

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I would like some criticism on my heads up game, not sure if what I'm doing is good or not. It is working well now but I'm not sure if it will at higher limits. I play turbo games

SB play:

So I fold hands that have no picture card, are not suited and have no straight connectivity(T5,93 etc) I'm not sure if this is good because Harrington say's that folding heads up is an mistake. However, I don't think he considers that fact that even if I am getting correct odds to play them, I won't know where I'm at if I play 82 and hit the 2.....

I raise all my others hands. If I have 20 M+ I raise 3x and reduce the amount I raise to till I reach 9-11 M where I do min raises, any lower than that I stop raising if my opponent is being aggressive to my raises. When I'm down to 6 M or less I either go all-in or fold.

BB play:

I check most of my hands. I raise any suited connector, pocket pair and any hand that has 2 cards T or above.


I just about always throw out c-bets, if not always. I go just a little bit more than half-pot. Against weak players this strategy works fantastically; all the stealen pots from either preflop or post flop gives me plenty of ammunition to bust my opponent when they attempt to play back at me. I have been lucky to kind of pick up when my opponents are playing with air. However, a difficult opponent reraises me preflop which becomes tricky if done correctly, turns into a big guessing game.

Of course most other situations that I can think of is player dependent.

I'm not sure if this approach is better to check sometimes. This takes advantage of position but not sure.
 
NoWuckingFurries

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Interesting question. HU is currently one of my (many) weak points.
 
iamhukleberry

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i agree with the thought of your play and i try to do same to an extent.if i do play any other way it is because i am extremly higher stacked or on certain occasions I really do just feel it..
 
jho

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"Never" should never be in your vocabulary on a Poker table. You should try anything possible to trap your opponent and out-think them.

The very first thing I always find out HU is whether the other player is tight. If they are, lots of times you can just keep stealing blinds right from them by betting strong preflop and/on flop.

Understand the value of your cards, but don't be afraid to play cards that you normally wouldn't.
 
Egon Towst

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In heads-up play, it is important to change gears from time to time. If you do not, your opponent will very quickly get a read on you. After all, he has no other players he needs to watch and will be focused on you exclusively.

Therefore, you should sometimes fold pre-flop (even though this is theoretically not mathematically sound) and sometimes limp (with good hands as well as with weak ones) in order to keep your opponent guessing and disguise your range.
 
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Depends on the opponent profile and at lower limits most of the time they are not such good players to change gears when they face the HU play. If he is TAG you can always raise 2.5 BB preflop and he will most likely fold his hand. If he is an LAG player you should mix up a little your preflop play and raise hard when you hit a top pair or second pair . If he is a calling station raise with any decent hand preflop . In any case try to milk him with any oportunity. You will see a lots of preflop all-ins at lower limits from verry agrressive players . In this case you should consider a coinflip anytime. If you will wait for a big hand you will quicly lose all your chips.
 
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pat3392

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I'm sort of thinking the same thing that always raising is probably a bad idea just I've seen lots of good players(videos) at high stakes always raise the SB. Some do 3x where as the others do 2x; they say it is done so that there is more money in the pot when they are in position
 
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Some good advice from other posters.

Your strategy looks like a pretty good starting point. Be prepared to make a random play once in a while and take note of what your villain will make of it. For example, if you raise with 92o in BB and it gets to show down you will get better value for your AK later; or occasionally change your standard SB raise. Mix it up a bit.

It usually pays to value bet a hit flop - even your 82o to a 2J5r flop. The thinking is that they would have to pay to hit their Q or K or whatever.

Above all, be prepared to adapt your play to suit your villain - if a SB minraise is enough to have the blinds make that your standard; if they always raise your SB limp then think about limping with primos etc etc.

Remember that there is only one way a headsup game ends: the smaller stack goes all in and loses the showdown. Everything you do is designed to a) be the big stack b) get their stack in with a worse hand. You get the bigger stack by a combination of stealing/luck/value play and you get them to put all their chips in by either appearing tight so that they can't help trying to bully you or loose so that they think you are trying to bully them. You are the opposite (for that hand) of what they think you are.

Or you just get lucky ;-)
 
timboslice4

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In heads-up play, it is important to change gears from time to time. If you do not, your opponent will very quickly get a read on you. After all, he has no other players he needs to watch and will be focused on you exclusively.

Therefore, you should sometimes fold pre-flop (even though this is theoretically not mathematically sound) and sometimes limp (with good hands as well as with weak ones) in order to keep your opponent guessing and disguise your range.

because you say it is not mathmatically sound to fold, does folding have to do more with timing? In other words you should consider folding 5 8 if you raised the last few hands even if your opponent is tight?
 
Egon Towst

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because you say it is not mathmatically sound to fold, does folding have to do more with timing? In other words you should consider folding 5 8 if you raised the last few hands even if your opponent is tight?


I was thinking about the mathematics of the pot odds. In a heads-up game you get 3-1 on your money to complete the small blind. The worst possible hand (72 off suit) is a 30-70 dog against a single random other hand pre-flop. Therefore, even with that hand, you have correct odds to complete. This is, of course, a simplistic analysis and in a real-life situation other factors such as those you mention come into the decision making process.
 
beardyian

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i always try to be more aggresive than my opponent in HU, unless i know them too be very aggressive, then i will try to trap them.

As premium hands are likely to scarce it is important to be able to hide a good strong hand in amongst the raises that you have been making with the junk.

Watch for your opponents reactions to your own moves, insta-folds, re-raises and make note of when and how often they happen.

If a pattern starts to appear it should make the game even easier.
 
Pascal-lf

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I always raise from the button :)
 
nateofdeath

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if you play hu based primarily on your cards, you certainly could take it to a higher lvl. though your plan is fine, if i knew that is what u were doing (without u knowing that i knew), i'd destroy u. Egon is right about changing up your style. hu, imo, is all about trying to figure out what your oponent thinks you are doing and even trying to shape that perception (as shaping it is easier than a second lvl read). with only one oppent, the fun (and imo skill) of heads up is playing those higher order mind games. if you're winning /w your strategy, u should stick with it, but just know there is a lot more to it. though it's quite posible my over-analysing fetish is once again rearing its ugly head here for no real gain. it's fun though

-n
 
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pat3392

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if you play hu based primarily on your cards, you certainly could take it to a higher lvl. though your plan is fine, if i knew that is what u were doing (without u knowing that i knew), i'd destroy u. Egon is right about changing up your style. hu, imo, is all about trying to figure out what your oponent thinks you are doing and even trying to shape that perception (as shaping it is easier than a second lvl read). with only one oppent, the fun (and imo skill) of heads up is playing those higher order mind games. if you're winning /w your strategy, u should stick with it, but just know there is a lot more to it. though it's quite posible my over-analysing fetish is once again rearing its ugly head here for no real gain. it's fun though

-n

How would you destroy it?

It is working but I think it is because I have a bit more HU experience than the average $5 HU guy; I have decent judgment post-flop. By raising always from the button whenever I'm in position there is more money in the pot, so I can exploit my post-flop advantage even more(since I have more information when there is more money in the pot) I do have big aspirations though and not sure if it would work at bigger games, although I have seen some professional players do it

I think there is 2 weaknesses to it; I'm giving my opponent easy opportunities to make big +EV plays my raising me and I don't adapt enough

EDIT: What do you mean by,
"if you play hu based primarily on your cards, you certainly could take it to a higher lvl"
 
nateofdeath

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EDIT: What do you mean by,
"if you play hu based primarily on your cards, you certainly could take it to a higher lvl"

because hu has almost nothing to do with your cards. there are levels to poker. 1st is what u have, 2nd is what u think your opponent has, third is what u think your opponent thinks u have, ad infinitum. as u pointed out, you're playing bad players. good ones will concern themselves with such things

and i'd destroy u in much the same way you'd destroy me if u knew exactly what my strategy was, and the best way to make your strategy clear is to always play your cards the same way. you were missing my point. don't sweat it. it's easy to do

-n
 
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pat3392

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because hu has almost nothing to do with your cards. there are levels to poker. 1st is what u have, 2nd is what u think your opponent has, third is what u think your opponent thinks u have, ad infinitum. as u pointed out, you're playing bad players. good ones will concern themselves with such things

and i'd destroy u in much the same way you'd destroy me if u knew exactly what my strategy was, and the best way to make your strategy clear is to always play your cards the same way. you were missing my point. don't sweat it. it's easy to do

-n

But what strategy would you do to destroy me? I would be open to being outplayed a lot so yeah I see that would rip me apart. Idk. I guess if you'd know what I'm doing you'd know to outplay me a ton at first, then do it with solid hands. If I didn't know you would be doing that I would be in for the worst of it.

Maybe I'm being arrogant but I don't think I play my cards. Just my strategy preflop evolves around putting money in when I've got position and fold the terrible hands with no potential; sure if I'm being outplayed a ton I'll fold more and if they are passive I'd fold less, but still it depends.

This strategy just revolves around preflop; since players get fed up with me I got to pay attention to what there doing so I know if they are playing back with air; then I got to start calling down with marginal hands like A/K high. There is still a lot of levels to it mainly revolves around tricking the opponent post-flop and hence, use the positional advantage I have


By the way, even though I'm defending this strategy I have decided to give up on it since I think adapting to my opponents tendencies post-flop and preflop is probably better. However, I still am looking for a debate or whatever you guys want to call it because I'm curios if it would work. Maybe I should min-raise the button every time instead and mix it up with some 3x raises? I'd still fold the terrible hands. That might work, getting the advantage of both worlds since I still can adapt to them with 3x and still have position advantage + it would probably be confusing
 
nateofdeath

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there is no concrete 'strategy' heads up was my main point, but i don't think playing your cards the same way everytime preflop will work, at least not long term against against competent players. since u decided to give it up, apparently u would agree, so i'm not really sure what we're talking about anymore.

-n
 
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pat3392

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there is no concrete 'strategy' heads up was my main point, but i don't think playing your cards the same way everytime preflop will work, at least not long term against against competent players. since u decided to give it up, apparently u would agree, so i'm not really sure what we're talking about anymore.

-n

Yeah I do agree, just that I have watched some videos were professional players do it as part of their regular hu game
 
c9h13no3

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The worst possible hand (72 off suit) is a 30-70 dog against a single random other hand pre-flop
That would actually apply if we were all in preflop. Since we're not, limping weak hands because of pot odds is a sure way to burn money.

Just steal your opponent's blinds and ride the money train to victory.
 
Egon Towst

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there is no concrete 'strategy' heads up was my main point,

^^this. If you consistently play in a single predictable style heads-up, you give away a huge edge to an observant opponent.



That would actually apply if we were all in preflop. Since we're not, limping weak hands because of pot odds is a sure way to burn money.

I am not sure that my point was made sufficiently clearly. I was saying that I do not hold that limping from the small blind is likely to be a successful tactic, even though the pot odds might make it seem attractive.
 
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