When's the time you SHOULD be pushing in SnG's?

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RamdeeBen

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In terms of your M/bb and stacks.
 
shinedown.45

shinedown.45

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In terms of your M/bb and stacks.
I usually push when any raise I would think of making brings me M<10 when I have a raising hand but generally push when I have M<10.
 
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RamdeeBen

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I usually push when any raise I would think of making brings me M<10 when I have a raising hand but generally push when I have M<10.

Ok thanks. With what sort of range we talking? A rag? K,10 and so on?
 
TheKAAHK

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Ok thanks. With what sort of range we talking? A rag? K,10 and so on?

A9s+, K10s+, any pp 77+ should be in your range. Also depending on your position, and the stacks in the blinds, you could include any sc 67+ and most any ace, K9os+. Of course the later your position the wider your range can be. If you are UTG I'd stay A10s+, AJos+, 99+, KJs+.

If you are in the blinds you can go with any ace, any face, any sc 67+, and perhaps even suited gappers 68+.
 
cjatud2012

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We talking multi-table SNG's or STT's?
 
TheKAAHK

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I believe STT. At least I am.
 
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RamdeeBen

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No, I'm talking MTT SnGs. Anything from 18man upto 90 man at the moment with the limits I'm playing.

Thanks for the replies in terms of range of hands I've had mixed results doing so. I found pushing like with the range and 10BB's or less Iv had worse results than waiting around to be nearly blinded out. Weird or normal? What I mean is, I never used to push so easy even with 5BB/s I could still be folding hands which you class as a range to push with and a number of times before the blinds caught me I'd have areal hand and double up. Then go on to win the SnG from being short stacked by playing a more tight game and limiting my range when my BB are low so I'm unsure the best way to approach it.

Like I say, when I've been pushing with 10bb<< I've been getting worse results in terms of ROI/profit. In fact past couple of days, been down slightly, not sure if it's just variance but for a whole week before when I started playing the SnG's and playing more "tight" when low on blinds I was turning over a nice profit so doesn't make sense to me!

I understand that I have to widen my range when blinds are low and start pushing instead of waiting around but the point I was making since I started doing this (last 2 days) I've been losing money yet playing more tight by limiting my range even when I'm very short stacked 3-5big blinds, gaining more money that way!
 
TheKAAHK

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In MTT SNG, I agree you can wait until you are >10bb. Stacks are shallow enough and blinds rise quick enough that waiting until the 5bb range is still ok. If you are shoving 10 or so bb's players will tend to call tighter making for less profitable shoves overall. At 5bb or less you will be called alot wider making for better EV in the short term, yet opening up the possibility of the horrendous beat.

Also when you are that small w/ shallow stacks, a double-up will usually put you back you the mid stack range, and you can the wait for a couple of hands and shove your range again.

I as well have found better results (slightly though) in waiting for >6bb to shove as opposed to shoving 10bb.
 
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Hi Ram,

I used to believe in the Harington M concept until I was given alternative advice by a poker pro who had had this discussion with, of all people, Phil Helmuth.

So this is now my strategy based on those conversations:

7 - 11 BB shove with premium hands only, fold all others. Your personal range of premium hands would suffice here.

5 - 7 BB AI w any pair, any 2 broadway any suited connector 45, 56, 67 etc and any A. However.... if there has been a rasie in front of me and I have some information on the behaviour of the player, this may affect which cards to shove. If I am closer to the 7 BB than the 5BB I may just fold and wait. So you have to consider the dynamics.

=<4 BB - shovng ATC here really unless I am UTG whereas I will wait and shove on the BB regardless.

Of course you have to take into consideration certain environmental factors, such as are you short handed... your range can open up against 6 players as opposed to 9. Also are there antes etc.

I have found that changing from shove when your M <10 with ATC has been less successful for me.

It seems like the whole World understands Harringtons M concept so you get called with a wider range of hands.. You shove A4 and get called with A5 for example. So being more selective I find has led me to place better.
 
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RamdeeBen

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Thanks for the replies, really helpful.
 
Shufflin

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I am an Ace-or-pair man myself -- open shove with an ace or pair with M<10. M<5 I'm open shoving with any 2 big cards. If the pot has been opened, then I think you need something decent; otherwise folding and hoping...
 
Daniel72

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Where can i find good range advices for each position in stt´s and multitable sng´s ? Thanks!
 
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Dantigua

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Daniel, read Colin Moshamn's Sit n Go Strategy. Its a very comprehensive strategy guide to playing SnGs.

Ram just re-read my post and it should have said that changing from Harringtons M has been better for me... I reach further and cash more often.
 
JMTalbert

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Everyone is going to play it differently, especally the donks like me at the micro levels. I try to go with the philosophy of only pushing with a hand I am comfortable losing with. Obviously the range opens up as your stack shrinks relatave to the table and blinds, but for the most part I want an ace, faces, or made pair.

There are always other factors, because these SnG's can sometimes take a while and the blinds could be such that four or five people are equal stacked with blinds pushing 10 - 20% of each players stack. When you are down to the bubble in these situations, patience is still a huge virtue. Let the other players get over aggressive with their play and hope they believe so strongly that you will fold everything because of ICM theory that they push too often with ATC. Then when you have AA, KK, or QQ you or someone else can bust them...unless folding will help you cash

There is not much worse than finally making your stand and pushing with QQ or JJ on the bubble only to have the player you read as a super aggressive donk who as been all in the last five hands flip over AK on you and then hit their card!
 
Pascal-lf

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I'll start shoving with a stack less than 15BB - above that I'm normally comfortable raising calling or raising folding, but sometimes I'll shove stuff like low pocket pairs from the button in order to maximise fold equity.

Ranges all depend on position. For example, if you're small blind with 15BB and big blind is tight it's probably +EV to shove 100% of your range. If he calls very wide (say, the top 30%) it's still profitable to shove very wide.

Bare in mind I play turbos though, and 10BB in a turbo will be 5BB in less than 5 minutes sometimes.
 
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RamdeeBen

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I'll start shoving with a stack less than 15BB - above that I'm normally comfortable raising calling or raising folding, but sometimes I'll shove stuff like low pocket pairs from the button in order to maximise fold equity.

Ranges all depend on position. For example, if you're small blind with 15BB and big blind is tight it's probably +EV to shove 100% of your range. If he calls very wide (say, the top 30%) it's still profitable to shove very wide.

Bare in mind I play turbos though, and 10BB in a turbo will be 5BB in less than 5 minutes sometimes.

You push with 15bbs? Seriously? Is that even profitable? I'm struggling to turn a profit pushing with 10bbs let alone 15! :)

Like I say in earlier posts I was profiting quite nicely at the donk levels pushing with an actual hand at 5bbs as opposed to 10bbs. Reason? I think you're getting called a hell of a lot more at the micros as opposed to higher levels which you might play? I'm guessing you will "blind steal" as people can fold higher up in limits.
 
cjatud2012

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There's nothing wrong with pushing 15bb's, it's preferable to bet/folding imo. You shouldn't be pushing 15bb's with a really wide range though, it's just that when you have a hand you want to play, you ought to raise all-in.

Also I don't agree with the notion that you're always going to get called when you try to blind steal at micros. Early on you can count on some multi-way pots, but once the effective stack size gets low people will start to get nervous and tighten up.
 
Daniel72

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I agree, in the early stages (in the micros) you can imply push all-in and almost always will get paid (easy double ups against calling stations) In the middle and later stages better players remain, and you can steal more blinds successfully, because the players are tighter now. Only some "regulars" will call you lighter, but then you can adjust. Make notes !
 
loopmeister

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I recommend playing super Turbos to practice push/fold poker.
In these your effective stack is almost always <10BB

You should always call shoves pretty tight.

When the action is yours to open, position is the most important determinant of your pushing range. Second is the pot:stack ratio (your M).

For example, with an M of 7, you usually shove 100% when folded to in the SB. From EP, your range is surprisingly tight (UTG+1 ~ AJ+, TT+)


SnGWiz is excellent for helping you "tune" your shove raises.
 
loopmeister

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There's nothing wrong with pushing 15bb's, it's preferable to bet/folding imo. You shouldn't be pushing 15bb's with a really wide range though, it's just that when you have a hand you want to play, you ought to raise all-in.

Also I don't agree with the notion that you're always going to get called when you try to blind steal at micros. Early on you can count on some multi-way pots, but once the effective stack size gets low people will start to get nervous and tighten up.

+1

What I've read recently, and it makes sense, is that 12-20 BB are good restealing stack sizes. Betting with your normal raising range is asking for trouble, since you're often faced with an AI raise. So from late position/blinds you can profitable 3-bet shove a bunch.

See this thread for the math if you're interested
 
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Aldito

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I agree, in the early stages (in the micros) you can imply push all-in and almost always will get paid (easy double ups against calling stations) In the middle and later stages better players remain, and you can steal more blinds successfully, because the players are tighter now. Only some "regulars" will call you lighter, but then you can adjust. Make notes !

But a double up early doesn't increase your equity by a whole bunch. If there's a big raise and a call or two I have no problem throwing away AKo/TT/JJ in the early levels of a sng.
 
Daniel72

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I open push in the early stages in the micros QQ+ and AK, you get calls from AJ, AQ, KQ, any Aces, middle and small pairs and even total crap (often suited trash lol) ...it´s unbelievable and +ev !
 
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