when you're set mining, but flop an open ender...

Jacki Burkhart

Jacki Burkhart

long winded rambler...
Silver Level
Joined
Oct 12, 2013
Total posts
2,960
Awards
6
Chips
0
Ok. this is not a specific hand, but a general situation that comes up frequently enough that I want to think about a strategy for optimizing this opportunity.

It's a tournament and you've made a decision to set mine with something like 66. you've called a small standard raise in a multiway pot and stacks are deep.

You told yourself preflop that you were just set mining and if you didn't flop a set, you'd quietly go away on the flop.

But then the flop comes out something like this:

:4c4: :5h4: :7s4:

or
:3h4: :4s4: :5d4:

either way, you have a pair and an open ender.

I know there are a lot of variables including what pot odds you are being given etc.

But in general, how should we think about playing these types of hands?

It seems to me that if set mining conditions were good, then expressed odds and implied odds might also be there for straight draws. But also, a 4 card straight is less likely to get paid off. And if you hit any of your 2 "set" outs there is now a 4 card straight on the board, so you'll be forced to pot control somewhat.

thoughts?
 
suby_rafael

suby_rafael

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Feb 24, 2014
Total posts
1,039
Chips
0
When such situation arises i try to take the pot down by applying as much pressure as i can on the opponent as far as i can (flop, turn ....). I like playing such situations kinda fast. Largely it also depends on what kind of hand range we put our opponent, who has the betting lead, what's our position and so based on these situation i determine my action whether to go for a check raise or continue betting for value or donk bet. And then evaluate on later streets based on opponents actions.

If the opponent shows resistance till the river and our hand fails to improve then i will strongly consider giving up on the pot but until then i play fast and strong (betsize). Of course others might have many different strategies but this is how i like to go about it in such situations. :thrasher:
 
Jacki Burkhart

Jacki Burkhart

long winded rambler...
Silver Level
Joined
Oct 12, 2013
Total posts
2,960
Awards
6
Chips
0
yes, often they are going to Cbet with their AK/AQ type hands and a check raise should take down this pot.

Another benefit of going for the check raise is potentially earning a free turn card when they don't Cbet.

Another consideration is if we apply pressure with a check-raise on the flop, then even hands like QQ+ are going to fear a set and while they might not fold, they might check the turn and you get to the river on the cheap giving yourself max opportunity to bink one of your 10 outs.

The check-raise on the flop might also be cheaper than calling flop and turn bets, so you get to the river for roughly the same price or cheaper with the added benefit of possibly winning the pot right there.
 
H

hffjd2000

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 6, 2014
Total posts
2,329
Chips
0
Any move is good.

You cant go wrong with this situation.
 
tARsh

tARsh

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Jul 24, 2014
Total posts
213
Chips
0
Have to think with general pre-flop play you are worst case at 10 outs and a fairly hidden hand.
Generally I would bet or raise on the flop here. No reason to check call or risk a check around and someone spiking that infamous A hi on turn and blowing up the pot when you no longer can tag along for many chips.
 
R

Red_Devil

Enthusiast
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 14, 2014
Total posts
69
Chips
0
Depending on the strength of villains range my default here would be: in position I like just betting the flop, out of position I don't mind donking out here, it costs a fraction of the price a check raise would and a lot of the time your still going to get a free card on the river if you check the turn, as they will often check behind (confused by your play). Obviously in a cash game this play would be exploitable and you would therefore have to throw in some monsters to balance your donking range, but in tourneys, your often not around the same players long enough to care. I do like your theory behind check raising though, just that in my experience your often getting that free card on the river anyway on wet boards like this. If you had the lead with QQ on a board texture like this vs a player who was capable of calling you in position with pkt pairs and suited connectors/connectors etc, would you want to go crazy??
 
L

Lekoo

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Aug 13, 2014
Total posts
100
Chips
0
Check raise will be good option to consider in these situations like Missjacki said.
If you face 3bet you will have just to give up the hand. This theory is also good because if the villain had a hand like AK, he wont play aggressive on the turn and river (except if he improve significantly) and you may finish the hand with checking and even win the pot with your pair.
 
R

Red_Devil

Enthusiast
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 14, 2014
Total posts
69
Chips
0
yeh coming round to a check raise now Lekoo. Just ran it through pokersnowie who advocates a check raise oop in that spot in both a 3 way and heads up pot oop with 66 on the board of 543. On the board of 547 a call is the preferred play. On the second example a call is 3.74 +ev and a raise is 1.50 +ev in a hu pot oop.

hope this helps
 
R

Red_Devil

Enthusiast
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 14, 2014
Total posts
69
Chips
0
so top pair on an open ender a check raise, mid pair of an open ender, just a check call. this was based on villain c betting 1/2 pot.

my 10 posts for the day have expired!! haha
 
Last edited:
BigSlickBaby

BigSlickBaby

Enthusiast
Silver Level
Joined
Aug 21, 2014
Total posts
49
Chips
0
Check raise will be good option to consider in these situations like Missjacki said.

Do some of you like to xr when you're on a draw in general, or only a weak draw such as this one?

As for the examples the OP brings up: As disguised as a draw like this is, it's extremely vulnerable. You have one card, right? It's a little different than set mining itself in that people can clearly see the straight draw on the board.
 
C

Chanty87

Rising Star
Bronze Level
Joined
Sep 15, 2014
Total posts
4
Chips
0
Your going to call a bet here, so the best line of action would be to bet the flop yourself perhaps around 50% of the pot, your taking the initiative and becoming the aggressor through doing this, also consider that if you complete your straight on the turn the value you can perceive to gain through betting is very minimal, the likely hood of villain calling any raise with such a dangerous turn card is very unlikely thus you should seek to at least extract some value with your hand on the flop, checking the flop and betting the turn is likely going to result in a fold if you complete your hand.
 
Everybodylovesdeuces

Everybodylovesdeuces

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Sep 9, 2014
Total posts
148
Chips
0
For me it totally depends on the villain. If they will fold to a bet or check raise here that's the way to go. If they are passive calling station, I would say check. If they are known light 3better, then just check call the whole way (a check call on flop and turn and lead out on the river will often do it too and your getting an extra street of value then). The object for me would be take the pot if possible, if not, then get to showdown cheap unless of course you bink the straight and then get as many chips as you can in.

I think the worst thing you could do, and I've found myself in this situation, is to stay in when the betting gets really heavy. A guideline I'd use is something like if you would fold TPTK on that board, then fold the one pair open-ender.
 
TheBigFinn

TheBigFinn

Visionary
Bronze Level
Joined
Aug 17, 2014
Total posts
586
Awards
2
Chips
0
Way too many variables in this situation. How many limpers? Position? Is the table loose or tight? Stack size?

Although it looks pretty, it really is kinda weak. With a 4,5 7 flop if a 6 comes you have to worry about someone with an 8. I'd play passively, because I don't think you'll force many players out with a raise and a check raise puts to much money on the table if you don't get folds.

I don't think you have much reason to deviate from your original plan.
 
L

lastbabyboomer

Enthusiast
Silver Level
Joined
Sep 15, 2014
Total posts
28
Chips
0
I agree with suby_rafael. Go for the win right away

take it down if you can
 
Top