When to shove in tournaments ??? Also, tournament strategy

dackler

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In the beginning of tournaments lately I have been playing/thinking like this...:icon_bigs

I play tight and wait for a hand. The blinds are small and therefore wont hurt your stack too much. So, you can wait for a chance to catch someone with an ok hand (with your great hand) and hopefully double up!

That is the ideal scenario. However, it doesnt always end up like this. Sometimes, that hand doesnt come for a whole level or two. By this point you are definitely not averaged stacked anymore. This is the unfortunate downside if you are running bad. This strategy can render you vulnerable to calls from larger stacks and leave you with only one option but to shove. :eek:

So when do you consider shoving? When you are half of the average stack? Maybe a third? When do we draw the line? :confused:
 
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Tweekn

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Basic NL tournament strategy

The average stack does not matter. The point of the tournament is survival. Comparing your chipstack to the current big blind is a better gauge. If I have less than 10 big blinds, I consider this code red time, and am looking for a good moment to shove. Generally, the more big blinds you have, the tighter you play. No sense in forcing anything if you have a nice cushion. GL to you.
 
rokkito

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The fewer chips you have , the more aggressive you need to play.
When the blinds grow , and your stack falls below 10 big blinds , you can no longer wait for the hand to come category 1 or 2. Therefore, in order to get to the prize , you need to start doing raises or even go all-in with weaker cards .
 
dackler

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Thanks for the advice.

Lately I have been making it pretty far in tournaments. I will try this advice out and maybe I'll make it even farther! :D
 
rokkito

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Thanks for the advice.

Lately I have been making it pretty far in tournaments. I will try this advice out and maybe I'll make it even farther! :D

Try not to fly on the blinds,try not to lose the chips :D , dropping weak cards , especially being in the blinds . At this stage, you can not play passively . To raise with any two cards if you are in a good position and you have 5 big blinds or less. In this case it is better to join the battle , with a good chance to double up ,than to play tight and fly on the blinds .
 
dackler

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Try not to fly on the blinds,try not to lose the chips :D , dropping weak cards , especially being in the blinds . At this stage, you can not play passively . To raise with any two cards if you are in a good position and you have 5 big blinds or less. In this case it is better to join the battle , with a good chance to double up ,than to play tight and fly on the blinds .

Word to ya mommy. :cool:
 
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j t

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if it gets too low the best bet is to shove!!!!!!!!!!!
 
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chronical

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well you can TRY limping with decent but not raise-good hands, the blinds are small and seeing cheap flop might be a good idea , you will tighten up eventually even if you are not planing on it
 
dackler

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well you can TRY limping with decent but not raise-good hands, the blinds are small and seeing cheap flop might be a good idea , you will tighten up eventually even if you are not planing on it

I play this way after I am initially tight and grab some "breathing room" chips to play with. :p
 
dackler

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if it gets too low the best bet is to shove!!!!!!!!!!!

Well, duh...

I am trying to determine precisely what are different perspectives of "too low" I think less than 10 big blinds sounds right...

What about you?
 
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The current standard is to start shoving at 15 BBs with antes in play. 10BBs without antes. There are even some who will go all the way to 20 BBs, but I feel this is where the trend is getting too deep to shove and it will settle back down in the 10 - 15 range.
 
dackler

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Nice response. Thanks. I'll give it a try and see how I like it. Well, then again... Hopefully I dont ever get short stacked.:jd4:
 
DougPkrMonsta

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In the beginning of tournaments lately I have been playing/thinking like this...:icon_bigs

I play tight and wait for a hand. The blinds are small and therefore wont hurt your stack too much. So, you can wait for a chance to catch someone with an ok hand (with your great hand) and hopefully double up!

That is the ideal scenario. However, it doesnt always end up like this. Sometimes, that hand doesnt come for a whole level or two. By this point you are definitely not averaged stacked anymore. This is the unfortunate downside if you are running bad. This strategy can render you vulnerable to calls from larger stacks and leave you with only one option but to shove. :eek:

So when do you consider shoving? When you are half of the average stack? Maybe a third? When do we draw the line? :confused:

By only playing monsters early in the tournament I think you are passing up on some good opportunities to build your stack. I would suggest watching some tournament videos and seeing how good players build their stacks up using aggression and embracing smaller edges.

Think of it this way, the tournament starts with a certain percent of fun players (who are not playing for profit and make questionable plays).

These players are going to lose their chips to those who play better, but if you wait around for great hands many will have fallen by the wayside and the players who are left are those who were willing embrace more marginal situations and collect chips from bad players while the blinds were low.

If you have a bigger stack you will not reach the push/fold decisions until the blinds have gone up significantly (or if you run good enough, not at all!) and you should be deep into the tournament.

You are right, having a bigger stack means having chips to gamble and run up and even bigger stack, and this is how you win big money by making final tables and most importantly the top three payouts (where most of the prize pool is to be won).

There are several different thresh-holds to keep in mind, as mentioned if you start approaching 10BBs you should know which cards you can profitably shove first into the pot from each position.

Something I didn't see mentioned yet is as you approach 20BB's you are looking to re-steal with 3-bets and 3-bet shoves against loose openers with cards that are ahead of their range... For example if they open 20% of hands, (some open much more) when it folds to them, then you can profitably re-raise with hands you might not expect.

Obviously this is just scratching the surface, but I hope this helps and if you are interested in putting in the time your results will keep getting better.

GL at the tables! :D
 
Jim Brown

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Waiting for the best hand just won't work fast enough with increasing blinds in a tournament. You need to chip up in spots without having the best hand every time. Expand your range to include some bluffs that you can play the same way as you would the value hands you're waiting for. Don't be afraid to fold just because you put some chips in the pot, and don't be afraid to bet just because you don't have AA.
 
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All of this sounds great to me except one thing. Yes, its great to play tight when blinds are small because sure it wont hurt your stack, but its also a good idea to limp in when you're in good positions if the blinds are low... flopping two fair with Jx is very nice and when the blinds are small and the stacks are fresh, implied odds with Jx aren't bad. BUT remember that this is only in good positions like utg or dealer
 
antonis32123

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Try at the beginning when the tour starts to see more suitet connectors more small big pairs, you have the chips that allow a little more loose play to find some good boards/flops , set mines/traps , earn a lot of chips , so as this low stack "ready to shove" situation delay to come as much as it can be done and you reach deeper into the ITM positions .

The average stack does not matter. The point of the tournament is survival. Comparing your chipstack to the current big blind is a better gauge. If I have less than 10 big blinds, I consider this code red time, and am looking for a good moment to shove. Generally, the more big blinds you have, the tighter you play. No sense in forcing anything if you have a nice cushion. GL to you.

I agree , we have to compare our stack to the current blind level. If I have LESS THAN 14 OR 12 then it's an alarm that I must shove . I look how close my blind get to number 12 , the closer they come I choose the spot to shove , with position , 1 player if possible , if not , god help , :D , if lower than 4 blinds I shove Ax and any pair paint cards .
 
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karl coakley

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I think playing tight early, you miss out on a lot of easy chips. I think it is a good idea to open your range up and control the pot. I would be calling a shove without a premium hand, but hands like A10os have a lot of value because there are so many bad players earily.
 
dackler

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By only playing monsters early in the tournament I think you are passing up on some good opportunities to build your stack. I would suggest watching some tournament videos and seeing how good players build their stacks up using aggression and embracing smaller edges.

Think of it this way, the tournament starts with a certain percent of fun players (who are not playing for profit and make questionable plays).

These players are going to lose their chips to those who play better, but if you wait around for great hands many will have fallen by the wayside and the players who are left are those who were willing embrace more marginal situations and collect chips from bad players while the blinds were low.

If you have a bigger stack you will not reach the push/fold decisions until the blinds have gone up significantly (or if you run good enough, not at all!) and you should be deep into the tournament.

You are right, having a bigger stack means having chips to gamble and run up and even bigger stack, and this is how you win big money by making final tables and most importantly the top three payouts (where most of the prize pool is to be won).

There are several different thresh-holds to keep in mind, as mentioned if you start approaching 10BBs you should know which cards you can profitably shove first into the pot from each position.

Something I didn't see mentioned yet is as you approach 20BB's you are looking to re-steal with 3-bets and 3-bet shoves against loose openers with cards that are ahead of their range... For example if they open 20% of hands, (some open much more) when it folds to them, then you can profitably re-raise with hands you might not expect.

Obviously this is just scratching the surface, but I hope this helps and if you are interested in putting in the time your results will keep getting better.

GL at the tables! :D


To each there own. I have been doing well following my tight early play. I have heard Huck Seed talk about knocking out bad players early on in the tournament as well. So, I'm not knocking it at all...

Everything else I agree with. Great contribution to the thread bruhski!

:cool:
 
ahil5000

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Stack of course is important, but the main thing that he was more than 15 bb. Of course there are moments when the hands do not have 50-60 hands, then just need try to steal the blinds and wait better hand,something like this!:cool:
 
dackler

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You know what... ever since this concept of "fun players in the beginning of the tournament" has been brought up I have been thinking about it lately. Every multi table tournament starts with a large number and drops significantly rather quickly in the beginning. That is alot of chips being transferred and is very crucial to chipping up.
 
diego farfan

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at the beginning of tournament is more play with your head and use a little more disposable hand as the flop always tends to a low variance bone to give low cards , I learned that watching many tournaments and put it into practice and so far I work
 
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I think the way you are trying to play is not suitable for a winning player.

Even if you double up, it doesn't mean that you're going to win the tournament.

I'm guessing you're focusing on the average chips of the tournament. Instead pay attention to your table and how many chips does everyone sitting around you has.

Even if you want to shove pre-flop, only shove if you have less than 8-15 blinds depending on the table aggression and your position.

I'd suggest you read some books/articles on how to play pre-flop for whichever level you prefer.
 
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Chipsteal_jj

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I think the way you are trying to play is not suitable for a winning player.

Even if you double up, it doesn't mean that you're going to win the tournament.

I'm guessing you're focusing on the average chips of the tournament. Instead pay attention to your table and how many chips does everyone sitting around you has.

Even if you want to shove pre-flop, only shove if you have less than 8-15 blinds depending on the table aggression and your position.

I'd suggest you read some books/articles on how to play pre-flop for whichever level you prefer.
 
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