When Post Flop Hand Categories Aren't So Clear

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ssbn743

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I have a whole series if questions, actually, that stem from a single live hand I played at the $600 MSPT Vegas. I know, it may not be wise to disclose results, but this post isn't really about the results that occurred, so - here's the history:

We have $18.5K in $50/$200/$400 with $14K effective

UTG 1010 - We open to $1K
+2 calls (effective stack)
And the BB calls
Jh 3c 9h
Flop action checks around
4d
Check/Check/+2 bets $1,500/fold/and we call
Ad

Check/he jams 11.5K/we tank for a bit, but make the call and lose to A9o


I'm not super excited with my call there. I think I talked myself into it when I knew he had it - players at this level are weighted heavily towards value in these situations - there just aren't that many bluffs he can have because he doesn't just cram it with bluffs - usually, anyway. But, I made the call since I didn't think a jam made value sense either - in addition to a few other reasons as well.


Now, I put pocket tens, on a Jack high flop into my Category 2 hand range, and checked the flop. Obviously, this allowed a weak/stabby opponent the rope he needed to hang himself with - it didn't work out in this case, but I am wondering more and more if this hand should have been placed into my Category 1 hand range and been cbet otf.

We have a range advantage, in this case, and a lot of very strong hands on this flop. Even though, our specific hand is not typically one we would declare 3 streets for value hand, we can represent one. Additionally, by placing this hand in my Category 2 range, I have to offset that range with my Category 4 hands - really, what Category 4 hands do I have here? Non-heart combinations of A5s is about it, really. So, putting this hand in C2 doesn't really balance that well.


So, basically, I'm wondering if this is a C1 hand on this flop? I think this is a good example of when things are not so cut and dry and would just like to see what everyone else thinks.
 
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celoshida

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wow.

a bit confused here.

why did you check the flop being the pf aggressor and check/call turn and then called his shove on the river?

you lost value on the flop cause he was calling with a pair since u were the pf agressor. and then you called when you were behind on the river.

I know it's easy when I'm not there playing, but it was an easy fold.

unless you spotted a huge live tell or something.

it seems you were on tilt from previous hands.
 
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ssbn743

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wow.



why did you check the flop being the pf aggressor and check/call turn and then called his shove on the river?

Because of my hand strength. This really isn't a hand I want to fire 3 barrels with, I would much rather control the size of the pot and check/call. Additionally, in terms of balance, we have to find a range of hands that we check call here - we can't just always cbet and not be exploitable.

To go even a step further, we can place our post-flop hands into categories. C1 are our 3 streets for value hands, C2 check/call (i.e. control), C3 semi-bluffs (i.e. O10hh), C4 total air.

We need to balance our C1 hands with our C3 hands, and C2 with C4, hence the point of this post. If I put 1010 in C2, what C4 hands do I balance it with? What total air combos do I have from UTG on this board? Not very many IMO.

On the other hand, if I were to play this hand as if it were a C1 type hand (and really, my range is mostly compromised of C1 hands) I can balance it really easily with lots of C3 hands that I could have as well.

you lost value on the flop cause he was calling with a pair since u were the pf agressor. and then you called when you were behind on the river.

Did I? What do I do on turn if he calls? Maybe I did lose some value, but that value comes at a pretty huge price of bloating the pot OOP with a hand that really isn't strong enough to do so.


I know it's easy when I'm not there playing, but it was an easy fold.

It's not that easy of an fold. In this case, you're probably right - but, a call otr is likely profitable.
 
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celoshida

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Because of my hand strength. This really isn't a hand I want to fire 3 barrels with, I would much rather control the size of the pot and check/call.


you're not controlling the size of the pot when you call his shove on the river with a bluff catcher.
 
Acesinthebig

Acesinthebig

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So you have 2.5k invested in the hand, and decide to call 11k on the river. You are not getting the right odds here.
 
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shadow72

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It seems like you played all of the steeets backwards.

I understand with that flop you might want to control the size of the pot, but really if you think you're hand is good, you should bet the flop and turn to see where you stand, if nothing else. Likewise, if you think you're hand isn't good, why call the river bet?

If you bet the flop, you have at least a chance of having your opponent fold, whereas you have no chance at all of that happening by checking. If you bet and he calls, you can re-evaluate on the turn.
 
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ssbn743

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It seems like you played all of the steeets backwards.

I understand with that flop you might want to control the size of the pot, but really if you think you're hand is good, you should bet the flop and turn to see where you stand, if nothing else. Likewise, if you think you're hand isn't good, why call the river bet?

If you bet the flop, you have at least a chance of having your opponent fold, whereas you have no chance at all of that happening by checking. If you bet and he calls, you can re-evaluate on the turn.



Just for the record, I did say from the start that I didn't like my river call too awful much. But now, I really hate it after plugging it into Equilab - I thought I was much better than that in real time. Here are the details:


Board Jh 9h 3x 4x Ad

Hero - 10x10x = 35%
Villain - JJ,99-33,AJs-A9s,A4s-A3s,KTs,QTs+,J9s,AJo,A9o,A4o-A3o,QTo,J9o = 65%

That said, this post really wasn't about the river call at all. But rather, should I be cbetting the flop? Ideally with a hand like 1010, we should be checking this flop and trying to control the pot. The general thought there is to play a medium pot with our medium strength hands.

However, in this case we're UTG and have a very strong range.

So, this is a case where our hand strength is medium, but our range should be willing to play a big pot. With that - do I need to be deviating from conventional wisdom (which would likely agree with 1010 checking the flop) and at least 2 barrels?
 
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