when is it really any 2 cards?

  • Thread starter I like my outs dirty
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I like my outs dirty

I like my outs dirty

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Hi i am just wondering when u need to call all ins based on your blind size. I had 4 bb with K 9 off and was going to ship. Instead under the gun shoves and is called by 2 others. Do i call the shove since i have only 4 bbs or do i realize I'm probably beat and fold. I don't have much info on players since I was just switched to a new table and hadn't seen enough hands yet.
 
steffdbird

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Hi i am just wondering when u need to call all ins based on your blind size. I had 4 bb with K 9 off and was going to ship. Instead under the gun shoves and is called by 2 others. Do i call the shove since i have only 4 bbs or do i realize I'm probably beat and fold. I don't have much info on players since I was just switched to a new table and hadn't seen enough hands yet.

What were there stack sizes? this is the main part :)
 
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aznman08

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I may just elect for the next hand. We're hoping our 9 is live and can hit trips on the flop while avoiding A-9, or a Q-J-10 while avoiding A-K


What were there stack sizes? this is the main part :)

I highly doubt stack sizes make a difference in this situation, if UTG is shorter than we are then the two callers are getting odds to call our stack, especially late in the tournament (unless our all-in re-opens the betting)

Course if it's still early level bingo, you never know.
 
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Scrover

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I will pass myself. Your king can be not live a lot of the time and could be the same with your nine. But I will go with it if I am a couple of hands from the blinds or just shove UTG hoping to get everyone to fold if I don't pick up a hand.
 
I like my outs dirty

I like my outs dirty

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Sorry forgot to add that....they had similar stacks to mine.
 
BLACKSTACK

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is this a cash game,mtt,stt?it would depend if you are.close the money on a tourney id fold and hope a couple get knocked out,if it was a turbo stt id gamble since im only 4bb left,if its a cash game id fold since im sure we are dominated.
 
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tohos

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A very important factor to consider is your position and opponents positions, considering you said UTG shipped and 2 others called before you, I'm assuming you are either in the blinds or in late position, in which case you have to fold as K9o is not strong enough to play without fold equity against 3 other players.
Even if you get a weaker hand like Q9s the next hand, if you get to shove, it is a more profitable play(might not be a profitable play, depending on position but relative to calling with the K9o, it is a more profitable play).

The only time you are calling any 2 cards is if you have <2bb and are on the blinds. Even then you might find a few folds if you are the SB. It is not profitable to call any 2 cards against hands that open for the reason that they have a hand they like and thus the hand is strong where is you likely have a random crap hand. So unless you are getting extremely good odds(doesn't happen unless you are super short and on the blinds), you never call an all in with any 2 cards.

As for pushing with any 2, there are a couple situations.
When you are on the BTN/SB and the blinds/BB is extremely tight and fold way more than they should, then it becomes profitable to jam any 2 cards if the stacks are shallow enough.
Another is when you are UTG and extremely short say at most 6bb stack and the blinds are going up in the next minute, ie if the hand plays out all the way chances are your 6bb stack becomes something like 5bb or possibly even a 3 or 4 bb stack in turbo.

Rather than thinking of when to play any 2 cards when short stacked, I think it is more important to realise when there is a very low chance of getting a more profitable spot that you have no choice but to shove your current hand. What I mean is that even if you have to make a losing play, if folding means you have a very high chance of having to do plays that will lose more, in the long run, it is +EV to do the less losing play. Although your EV can no longer be positive in the situation, you have to make the correct decision of going with a less negative EV play. This is the reason why you are forced to shove wider and wider as your stack grows shorter and shorter in tournament play. Hope you understand what I mean don't know how to explain it clearer I'm bad with words.
 
Arjonius

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is this a cash game,mtt,stt?it would depend if you are.close the money on a tourney id fold and hope a couple get knocked out,if it was a turbo stt id gamble since im only 4bb left,if its a cash game id fold since im sure we are dominated.
If this is a cash game, I can't imagine a situation where you should have a 4bb stack.

As for tournaments, it's a lesser of pretty bad evils type of choice. The probability of beating three opponents with a mediocre or poor starting hand is pretty low, and so are the chances of building up from such a small stack if you fold here.
 
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BLACKSTACK

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If this is a cash game, I can't imagine a situation where you should have a 4bb stack.

As for tournaments, it's a lesser of pretty bad evils type of choice. The probability of beating three opponents with a mediocre or poor starting hand is pretty low, and so are the chances of building up from such a small stack if you fold here.

damned if you do,damned if you dont :p
 
steffdbird

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re aznman

I may just elect for the next hand. We're hoping our 9 is live and can hit trips on the flop while avoiding A-9, or a Q-J-10 while avoiding A-K




I highly doubt stack sizes make a difference in this situation, if UTG is shorter than we are then the two callers are getting odds to call our stack, especially late in the tournament (unless our all-in re-opens the betting)

Course if it's still early level bingo, you never know.
Hi yeah I totally agree here I was just trying to get an idea of the table set up and opponents stacks are important what happens if the callers had less than the hero and there for it could of been better to call but clearly here you cant call especially in late position few more hands till blinds attack :)
 
Jacki Burkhart

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Tohos gave a great analysis and opinion. I completely agree.

For my own game, even when I say "any 2 cards" I rarely actually mean it...I usually mean "top 80-90% of hands".

So, there are definitely situations where I'll jam nearly any 2 cards. (If I have complete trash like 83o or 24o I'll wait).

But, there are hardly ever situations where I'll CALL with any 2 cards.

When playing marginal and trash hands for your tourney life, you REALLY want to have "first in vigorish". Due to the gap concept that it takes a stronger hand to call a bet than to make a bet there is a huge advantage to being first in.

In practice, what does this mean? I'd rather fold that K9o right there and jam next hand with 96o even though 96o is a significantly weaker hand. WHY? well because #1 it's possible nobody will call. in the K9o example you WILL be playing to the river vs. at least 1 opponent. #2 if they DO call what are they calling with? probably pairs, Aces and broadway cards. If they have 2 broadway cards vs your trashy 96 you're probably live. If they have any ace besides A9 or A6 you're live. its a much better situation, even if the intrinsic value of your hand is much worse.

I found myself in similar dire straights last night with about 7BBs every time I had an ok hand like Q9o or T8s there was a raise or multiple limpers ahead of me. With a bigger stack I'd happily jam on 1 limper, but I knew I didn't have enough to make even 1 limper fold and their limping range would likely dominate me. So, I waited until I could be first in. I jammed with 96s in early position and won the blinds. A little later I jammed when it folded to me in mid position with 56o and I got called by AQ in the BB....yes, I lost and I was out but I was happy to have roughly 40% equity getting better than even money on my push with a chance to double up.
 
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tohos

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I forgot a situation for calling with any 2 cards. When you have a very very short stack like 2bb, you can call with any 2 cards if there is a 2x open and caller(s). Chances are by the time you get to showdown you will most likely be facing only 1 opponent(mayb 2 sometimes) as they will push each other out of the pot. Considering that, you get an extremely good price to call with any 2 cards. You can quadruple your stack or more when you win. You are almost never getting a bad price unless they have a premium pocket pair and you have absolute total rags, and they aren't going to have those very often.

Apart from getting dealt a very good hand(and winning it), this is one of the best ways to get back into the running from an extremely short stack. Most of the times you are not going to be dealt a very good hand and you may still just win a small pot or even lose with it, so you have to be doing these sort of plays to have a chance to come back.
 
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rumsey182

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Hi i am just wondering when u need to call all ins based on your blind size. I had 4 bb with K 9 off and was going to ship. Instead under the gun shoves and is called by 2 others. Do i call the shove since i have only 4 bbs or do i realize I'm probably beat and fold. I don't have much info on players since I was just switched to a new table and hadn't seen enough hands yet.
depends on so many factors like position in the tourny and structure and payouts
 
hobonc

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If you find yourself with only 2 or 4 bb's then I hope it is because you just lost a hand that crippled you.
Make your move sooner if at all possible. Generally, ~10-15 bb should put you on alert for any situation you can chip up.

As for the K9 hand: if it is a short table, and I have 3:1 odds, I am not so sure I can fold. Especially if the blind is getting ready to hit me.
 
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